Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

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Nickol
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Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

Still not satisfied with the Performance of the Brakes on my '69 Traveller. I Need 2 goes to get the pedal under firm pressure and even them the stopping power is not right. The car will come to a halt in a reasonable distance but the right leg must exert considerable pressure to do so. No matter what I cannot get any wheels to lock - a sort of unwilling ABS :cry:

I do have pattern cylinders all round. The Consensus of the many Forum posts is that the front Patterns are not too good - People citing leaks after a short period of time. Mine do not have any leaks but is it the experience that of others that they perhaps do not get up enough pressure to the shoes?

I have new hoses, newish Mintex shoes (i.e bedded in) and the MC is an original AP but with new seals albeit no dished washer as it is just not available. The adjustments are right up on all 4 wheels. Brake fluid must be new by now as I have bled the System so many times. A remote servo brake assist has been fitted in the past but I have my doubts as to its effectiveness - if I remove the vacuum hose, am not convinced there is any difference in ease of braking.

So back to the original question - are the pattern cylinders on the front man enough?
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oliver90owner
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by oliver90owner »

Simple laws of physics. Pressure in a hydraulic system will be the same throughout the fluid provided the system is in equilibrium (fluid not moving). Force equals pressure multiplied by the area, so I doubt the force will be less - unless the diameter of your slaves is less than original.

If the slaves are working, the force should be exerted on the brake shoes in the right direction to expand the shoes against the drum. You should not need to pump the pedal to achieve a result, so I would suggest that there is unnecessary movement of the slaves before application of any force on the shoes, the master cylinder is not working properly or there is air in the system. Presumably there should be a dished washer for a purpose, so omitting it means the master cylinder is not as designed?

If the servo is not working, that may be compromising the system? Removal from the circuit is easy and would rule it out (or in) as the fault.

The standard system works well enough, so reverting to standard is my advice. Pattern slaves generally are considered poor due to early demise by leakage and not for any other reason, I believe (but would like to hear of any other known faults).
Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

Thank you Oliver for your Analysis.

According to the Workshop Manual, the dished washer in the MC was a Retro Fitting with, according to section M22 :-

"Later MC assemblies are fitted with a dished copper washer between the Piston head and the main Cup to ensure that the Transfer holes in the Piston are kept clear "

Thus for my logic, it is there to prevent possible binding by ensuring an effective return of fluid within the MC. when I replaced all the Cups in the MC as part of my LHD conversion, the innerds were a mess in that the existing Cups and springs etc were all in the wrong place. This was tippical of a lot of bodges done on the vehicle before.
Morris%20Minor%20brake%20master%20cylinder%20adaption%20diagram.jpg
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The removal of the brake servo from the circuit is not so easy. Of course, I can disconnect the vacuum but the brake pipe itself would Need relocating. The late Roy A commented that sometimes the Brake servos make the System difficult to bleed properly and therefore get all the air out.

So from what you say, unless others have a different experience , is that the pattern wheel cylinders will work the same as an original AP one unless they leak or exhibit another kind of fault. As this appears not to be the case, my Money ( € of course !) is on air being still in the System.

Will do this in the next few days and Report back.
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Declan_Burns
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Declan_Burns »

Nickol,
I am not a firm believer in messing about with master cylinders. If it is playing up I would replace it as they are not too expensive.
If you are stuck I have a brand new one here in my spares and I could send it to you. You can send me back a replacement at your leisure.
Remember new replacement master cylinders are a tad wider than the originals and need to be dressed with an angle grinder to fit.
Regards
Declan


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Declan
oliver90owner
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by oliver90owner »

The servo has an inlet and outlet pipe. Unscrew from servo, insert a piece of brake pipe between the couplings and bleed the system. Nowt difficult in that. Likely a flexible brake pipe would suffice if you don't have a pipe flaring tool.
Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

Thank you Declan. You are quite right in my opinion about a non performing MC but at the Moment I am not convinced that the MC is at fault. As soon as I can get round to bleeding the System properly and the symptoms remain, I will then know that a new MC is the only Option. By the way, my MC is fed by a remote Reservoir ( why this was installed I do not know, perhaps when the servo assist was put in) and I seem to remember seeing a thread that you can supply a better Quality feed hose that the "weeping" rubberish one?

As an aside and nothing to do with this thread, I must have snapped both handbrake cables at the Weekend at once - godd that I have spares already

Gruß nach Düsseldorf
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Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

oliver90owner wrote:The servo has an inlet and outlet pipe. Unscrew from servo, insert a piece of brake pipe between the couplings and bleed the system. Nowt difficult in that. Likely a flexible brake pipe would suffice if you don't have a pipe flaring tool.
ah yes I see - thanks for the tip.

OK, will first bleed the System normally as it is and if no improvement, do as you suggest. If still no improvement, then MC replacement.

It is a good Feeling to at least have a plan !
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by amgrave »

Nickol.
I don't know if this is relevant but you did say that taking the vac pipe off the servo did not make any difference to the brakes. Every vehicle I have driven that had a brake servo fitted has very hard to operate brakes when the engine is not running i.e. no vacuum. The brakes will work but you have to stand on the peddle to do it and no way would you be able to lock the wheels up, that sounds a bit like what you have said earlier. If that is true it sounds like the servo itself is not working at all. Try what Oliver has suggested and that will take the servo out of the system.

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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by IslipMinor »

Nickol,

The diagram for the master cylinder shows the suggestion to remove the 'residual pressure valve' - this is for cars with disc brakes ONLY. Presumably you have left it in place for your all-drum set up?
Richard


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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by ManyMinors »

I too am confused as to why this part has been removed from the master cylinder and would suggest that if there are any doubts as to the cylinder's condition it should be replaced. However I suspect that your brake problem is more likely linked to having a faulty servo fitted and I would remove it from the system completely and revert to standard brakes. What is the point of keeping it there if it isn't working?
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

I can confuse the world.......

This is the only Diagramme that I had to Hand. It is actually taken from a guide to modify the MC for usage with disc Brakes, which of course, I do not have fitted and do not intend to. The purpose of exhibiting the Diagramme was to indicate this dished washer. Ist omission will have no effect on the Quality of braking but rather the release of pressure afterwards.

As mentioned before, the car does stop effectively and does fulfill quite well the regulatory requirements but......you do Need to apply a lot of leg pressure for effective braking and Need two goes at it. This is obviously not satisfactory.

I intend to procede as indicated above and will Report back..........but it is raining :(

Edit : Amgrave, just read your post - that is interesting what you say and describes my Problem completely - many thanks.
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Declan_Burns
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Declan_Burns »

Nickol,
It is also worth checking the angle at which the servo is mounted.
Wrong angle and you will never be successful bleeding the brakes. Been there bought the t shirt.
Do as Oliver has suggested any bypass the servo.

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Declan


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Declan
Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

Ok - will do.

If it works here is a pic - taken 2 years ago but nothing has changed apart from being a bit cleaner .
IMG_0544.JPG
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I lie ! the Reservoir is now on the LHS as befits the steering. From what you can see, does the angle look wrong to you?
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Declan_Burns »

Nickol,
Here's a photo of my servo. I will dig out the fitting instructions tomorrow and let you know the angle. It looks about 25 ... 30°. Yours looks wrong.
I can do the braided hose for you if you require but it designed around reservoirs with threaded connections and not push on.

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Declan
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Declan
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Sleeper »

Declan_Burns
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Declan_Burns »

That's exactly it John-saves me looking for it.

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Declan


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Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

"Here's a photo of my servo. I will dig out the fitting instructions tomorrow and let you know the angle. It looks about 25 ... 30°. Yours looks wrong. "

That would not surprise me at all - almost everything else was wrong wherever I looked, clutch plate, brake MC, Carburetter pieces, oil filter, flasher relay, Petrol tank Sender etc etc.......


...and thanks Sleeper for the pdf Download - I really do have something to work on now- will check and Report back later.

Declan - if I do ultimately Need to Change the MC I can do the feed hose then.
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Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

Update

1. Rebled the System - no Change recorded.

2. Bypassed the break servo, re-bled the System but the amount of leg effort to stop the car is very little if at all different from before.

In bleeding the System however, sometimes it seemed like the brake pedal was relatively solid even though a bleed nipple was open. Then having released the pedal and having another go, it was easy to push to the floor again and expel the fluid/air into the jar. I am wondering whether the pushrod or mechanics inside the MC are jamming, hence the amount of effort required.

As before the car does stop but you Need to stand on the pedal ( which at least is very firm and not at all spongy) to get it to do so. The wheels, contrary to other Posts I have read here, are nigh impossible to get them to lock and let the tyres skid.

This is pointing me in the direction of ........ I do not know what? :x

To summarise :-

1. firm hard brake pedal - no pumping required. Thus no air in System and MC is working.
2. A lot of leg pressure is Needed to give the feel that the car is decelerating. In fact, initial breaking does not seem to have any effect at all and only when you apply more pressure does the car slow up.
3. The 50km/hr brake test, which should to all accounts lock the wheels, does not happen.

For my logic, I am back to the theory of the front pattern cylinders not transmitting enough oomph. Then again, could it be that the old MC, despite the firm pedal, is not producing enough pressure. As I write this I remember that the reason I replaced the front cylinders all round 3 or 4 years ago was because the left side front wheel would then lock easily but the right side not, causing uneven braking. Frightening it was!
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Nickol
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by Nickol »

Second update.

Not been able to do anything since due to work committements and Holidays away. However.......

an article in a Magazine has given an interesting tip. It said to check the rear flexible brake hose. The writer of the article went on to say that having renewed the front hoses, cylinders etc, the Brakes still posessed symtoms of badly adjusted brake drums and relatively poor brake Performance. Exactly my Problem, I read on with interest. The rear brake hose, being a bit old, under pressure would expand internally and not effectivley deliver fuid to the wheel cylinders.

So I tested yesterday and just perhaps this is my Problem too. You cannot see the hose expand under pressure but you can feel it when you hold it. Or is this normal? The fronts have relatively new steel braided hoses so you do not see or feel anything.

Replacement ordered - wait and see
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Re: Brakes....yet again.....front pattern cylinders

Post by mowogg »

I replaced all 3 of my hoses recently. Result was a significant improvement. It could well be this
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