Drums 2 Discs. My story and verdict.

[margriff]

I bought Hugo in February and was immediately amazed at how the breaks were so...well...poor to respond. He passed his MOT 3 weeks before I bought him so I it took as red that the brakes had been looked over and the box had been ticked.

I was at work the day he was delivered...yes delivered...from Durham and my wife drove him off the flatbed and off the co-op car park opposite my house to in front of the house. She genuinely thought the brakes were shot. This, as you will know, is just the way drum breaks are. I and she had only ever driven moderns. Our Chrysler Grand Voyager has amazing brakes, very responsive and efficient. Hugo is our first classic.

We then turn to...here...the forums. Opinions, advice, on going banter, past posts etc.

Eventually I asked the question out right - Drums to Discs???? and got a mixed response.

"What do want disc brakes for? Are you taking it racing?" someone asked - Fair questions but no...no racing pending I just want a car that will stop a bit sooner and a car that my wife will get in and feel safe without seeing me braking like Fred Flintstone.
"Of course you need disc brakes" someone said, "if your car is a daily runner it has to be reliable and able to cope in modern traffic." My car is a daily runner...so that gets me thinking.

So I pondered and thought and rubbed my chin and the more I drove Hugo to work and back...over the road bumps going down hill in close traffic that accelerates and brakes and accelerates and brakes...you know how it is...the more I felt uneasy and less and less confident. No I'm not a boy racer and never have been. I wouldn't have bought a Moggy would I?

Again I turned to the forums.

How much will it cost to convert my front drums to Discs?
"£1000" I was told. OMG...How much? "That's for the kit and labour," I was told. So it was Brand new or second hand, probarbly 2nd hand Marina brakes. Right ok.

So I start my trawling through the companies that supply brake kits. All the usual suppliers we all know, inc' fleabay.

Eventually settled on the Marina disc kit from ESM. Out of stock. So went for the Ford front disc kit from ESM (don't know which Ford), cos they had one. £480 inc VAT. Ordered it...arrived...steel hub missing...sent next day...great service. No probs. Had already bought a brake servo after good advice on here too...so that was waiting, in a box in the dining room, for the complete brake kit to arrive.

When it came to fitting we put the servo in the bottom the engine bay...right side as you look at the engine using the excellent diagram sent to me by Boris64. (see below)
We replaced the steel piping that came with the kit with copper pipe. Why? Well sometimes it's best not to question the father-in-law, after all he's doing all this work for free with me looking over his shoulder most of the time.
The brakes went on with no probs and the drum brakes that came off were in great condition.
Job done ...let's go for a drive. ? Oh dear. Back to forums. More fantastic advice to make sure you put the back brakes through the servo too, check you've taken off the top cap on the servo, one way valve from the inlet manifold is a must and so on...Back to the Moggy and did all this.

Was it all worth the effort and the money?
Verdict:- Jesus yes! The braking is so much better. So much more responsive. As soon as I depress the brake pedal there is resistance there that wasn't previously and the slightest pressure and the addition of pressure brakes more and more..basically Hugo now brakes like a modern car and can actually do a proper emergency stop. I feel so much more relaxed and confident driving him. Both my kids and my wife have now enjoyed being passengers in Hugo in the last two days whereas they would not get in him in the previous 8 months.
My advice...if you are thinking about changing your drums to discs is do it. If you can afford it, do it because your peace of mind and confidence in your classic will be worth every penny. But...

The most important thing, through all of this has been the fantastic advice I have been given by members of this club on these forums. it has saved me a fortune and I have learnt so, so much. My membership fee has paid for itself easily. I love my Moggy and with it , being a member of this club and forum makes it all the sweeter. In particular thanks to Matt the Mod', Boris64, ColinChandler, MarkyB and of course bmcecosse.

[frame][/frame]

[andy.pointeer]

I have all the parts to do the disk conversion and will be progressing this work in the next few weeks, this will include the change of all front suspension bushes to poly.

Good to see you have seen an improvement, I hope I will get the same.

[estwdjhn]

An interesting post.

How well set up were your original brakes? I've yet to drive my minor more than a few feet (I'm too busy welding the shell) and I've been pondering fitting disks to mine.

Now, I come from the classic Landrover world, and if I had a quid for every person who declares standard series Landrover brakes to be rubbish, I'd be a millionaire.... however usually I've found on investigating the vehicle's of people who declare this, it's usually because they have air in the system, oil seals leaking onto the shoes, cheap and nasty friction linings, and haven't touched the brake adjusters in years. My Landrover has just bog standard brakes, but set up something like right, and with top notch linings (which isn't saying much these days, but is still way better than some of the cheaper offerings). I'm not going to claim it would out-brake a Ferrari, but I have no problems using as a daily driver at fast motorway speeds.

It's worth noting that the MOT brake test means very little. If a vehicle has passed, all that it means is:
The MOT tester couldn't get the brake pedal right to the floor when he stood on it.
The front brakes act about the same each side for a given pedal pressure.
All the brakes do something - and if the bloke in the driving seat pushes hard enough (it can be very hard) the brakes meet some (in reality very low) standard of effectiveness for slowing the vehicle down.

I've tested umpteen different classics over a few years, including several where I felt the brakes left a certain amount to be desired. I've never ever known one fail on service brake efficiency (once had a fail on handbrake efficiency on a Rover P4) - although I've had trauma in the past with fails for brake balance between the front wheels.

I suppose what I'm saying is - I'm interested in your findings - but does the std system really have to be that bad?

Incidentally, does the ford kit require different wheels, or spacers or similar, or do bog std minor wheels fit?

[Alex'n'Ane]

You can comfortably lock the front wheels from say 30mph with the standard set-up, so they're not really ineffective. What you've said about the ladrover owners sounds very familiar..
If you're going to drive her a little harder, (you will get brake fade) or fit wider wheels, then discs are certainly worth it. And no the standard disc kits should fit normal standard wheels no issue.

[margriff]

Didn't have to get new wheels before fitting Ford brakes, no.

The original drums on the Moggy on inspection were sound. None of the problems you noted.

Funnily enough, my father-in-law who fitted them with me fitted discs to a Landy he had many years ago and was amazed at the difference.

[rayofleamington]

I think the reason you get such widely varying views is because Minor owners are a widely varying bunch of people.

I've never felt I 'had' to fit disks but I started to drive a /minor when I was young and although I had a few scary moment they never let me down. You learn to drive better if the brakes are weaker!! You also learn to muse engine braking to avoid brake fade (a skill rapidly disappearing from the modern world and those without the skill are more at risk if their brakes have an issue)
My minors were usually daily drivers for the first 15 years and when doing 25k miles a year, the level of maintenance for the entire car (including the brakes) got a bit too much for my sanity (partly due to 3 gearbox replacements in 4 months..).
The thing about using a standard minor every day is that driving it becomes second nature and you know when the brakes need adjusting just by the difference in pedal travel (between 1st and second application in quick succession).

As for people who use a modern car most of the time - if you want the brakes to behave the same way then fitting modern brake set up is really not a big problem.
If the car is used by a less gung-ho / confident driver (usually the wife gets the blame) then not being used to drum brakes makes people VERY anxious.
At the end of the day, it's your car so if changing the brakes means you get a lot more enjoyment, then all praise to you for doing it. Ignore the nay-sayers as you're getting to use the car much more
On the flip side, anyone who is happy to drive a standard car is equally entitled to be happy with it, and to defend their standard car as being perfectly good.

[margriff]

Well said Ray...

[margriff]

Well said Ray...

[bmcecosse]

You get 'banter' on this forum??? And you're still not going racing now you have these good brakes... ?? i sincerely hope you didn't use 'copper' pipe for the brakes...must be kunifer... Your original brakes must have been desperate - the standard 8" (later car) brakes will stop the car - locking wheels if necessary) over and over again without any real problem IF they are in good order. But well done persevering - and you are now happy with your brakes - that's the important thing. Good luck with it - but do please check the pipes are kunifer - NOT copper....... Roy

[Matt]

- the standard 8" (later car) brakes will stop the car - locking wheels if necessary) over and over again without any real problem IF they are in good order.

Yes, they will - but with much more force required than people are used to now!

[bmcecosse]

Is it?? Not as I remember - of course I now have 9" front drums (and no servo) - which are light as a feather!

[philthehill]

Cannot remember ever having the original 7" brakes on my Minor fade and the car was always driven very hard but there again did not use the brakes much in my youth mainly throttle and clutch (oh to be young again and with less traffic on the road). I then changed to the huge Riley 1.5 drum brakes (with lots of vent holes drilled in the back plates and drums) as I need a bit more stopping power eventually ending up with the Marina brake conversion fitted which I consider is superb value for money. No servo fitted as I find it stops better than satisfactory without. The only car I can remember ever having experienced brake fade with was my Mk3 Triumph Spitfire (with good disc and drum brakes) when driving very hard over Corney Fell (the fell road between Ravenglass and Duddon Bridge) which was and possibly still is a pleasure to motor over. Coming down towards Duddon Bridge the brakes went completely but hey I lived to tell the tale.

[Matt]

I get brake fade on most things I drive...

Focus, Fiesta, Saab 9-5 etc as well as the minor (with discs)

The only thing I haven't managed it on yet is a Transit!

[lowride stepside]

Another good thing about fitting discs is you don't have to keep adjusting on a regular basis .the only down side dirty front wheels .

[Dave@FJ]

[quote="Matt"]I get brake fade on most things I drive...

quote]

Ha ha Matt....You must drive like I do!

[smithskids]

I had marina discs on my MM when it was hotted up and must admit it gave you great confidence when stopping from high speed, it used to sit down on the bump stops and just stop so easily, happy days

[Matt]

I get brake fade on most things I drive...

Ha ha Matt....You must drive like I do!

I drive through mountain passes in North Wales every week, with tight curves on steep descents. There is one 1/2 mile stretch where everything I have driven down it has had brake fade (thinking about it, even the transit)

[liammonty]

You might want to stop relying quite so heavily on the brakes Matt, so you can actually stop should you ever need to

[margriff]

Would someone to describe what brake fade is?

[philthehill]

Simply put - It is where the brake shoes/pads and possibly the brake fluid through hard use get so hot as to be ineffective and you find that you have NONE or very limited braking power.
For more detailed information see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade