Pretentious Experts

[blues2rock]

Is anyone else irritated by the way in which some so called 'experts' look down their noses at what they term 'MOT standard repairs'?

A recent classic journal quoted an 'expert' as saying "Sadly there are still (cars) out there with MOT standard repairs consisting of patches rather than panel replacement"

That is just the sort of pompous drivel that is most unhelpful to the classic car movement.

I agree that if a car is to be restored to concours then replacement panels might be necessary, but completely 'over the top' in many other cases.

I don't need my Minor to last another 50 years - and no I don't wish to preserve it for posterity I just want to have it love it repair it polish it and use it.

[Chipper]

Indeed, as long as the car is structurally sound and useable, it doesn't really matter that much what the repairs look like, particularly underneath where they are generally unseen.

Ideally, the correct shaped repair panels should be used, however, for some cars these simply aren't available or are exorbitantly priced/rare as hen's teeth, so some makeshift repairs have to be done, else the car gets scrapped.

My Traveller had quite a few patches underneath when I acquired it; over the years, I've tried to improve things where possible, but to be honest, it's still something of a 'patchwork quilt'. However, it gets alot of favourable comments, and looks and drives well enough, so I don't mind that it's not quite perfect. In fact, I would say it makes a car more useable, as if it's concours standard, you would be scared to use the thing!

[les]

I would have thought they were referring to a patch of metal simply welded over the existing rotten metal, in which case they'd be right.

[alexmcguffie]

I've seen some shocking work by garages for MOT work. Not cutting rust out before welding is just bad practice and bad workmanship. I'd like my Minor to last well after im a pile of dust so I like to do work that will last.

If a garage doesnt have pride in their work, dont use them!

[midengineracer]

I would have thought they were referring to a patch of metal simply welded over the existing rotten metal, in which case they'd be right.

I just spent £3200 before VAT redoing my chassis, my car passed MOT but was unsafe to drive. The gentleman doing the work was shocked by some of the repairs. If I hadn't insisted on some repairs that seemed to be unnecessary, the bill would have been ~£700 above the estimated cost. There were patches on patches and much scarier. Two years ago, the MOT station thought I had one of the best chassis they had seen in a while.

So, no, I don't think it's bad...

[LUR759H]

well guys i dont know what to do the previous own of my car welded in an almost new floor however welded from the inside perfect welds leaving the rust behind and the old floor sections on the outside, so now im not sure what to do with it because i have no idea what to keep and what to leave - i dont know!!! still not giving up on it which is what Anna has asked me to do a few times now.

Alan

[whyperion]

LUR

the cost of proper (in your case) repair will probably exceed any kind of market value, but , once It is done, oiled yearly , it will last you 50 years (petrol permitting). In some ways its better to get a car where there have been no attempts of a bad 'repair' , but its always better to keep another minor on the road as long as you can afford the bills.

[Redmoggy]

I think pretentious may be a little rough. MOT standard welding is a loose term. So long as the tester can not see a hole it's a pass. You have to remember though that many garages will hand a 16 year old boy, with no training a MIG torch and tell him to weld up a rusty car. What you get is some 22 guage steel plate stuck over a rusty hole with what can best be described as Pigeon excrement. If you beleive that this the best way to keep your Minor on the road, well fair enough. However if you want a solid motor car that will safely purvey you and your own anywhere you wish to go then I think you should be looking for a better alternative?

Regards
Rod

[plastic_orange]

well guys i dont know what to do the previous own of my car welded in an almost new floor however welded from the inside perfect welds leaving the rust behind and the old floor sections on the outside, so now im not sure what to do with it because i have no idea what to keep and what to leave - i dont know!!! still not giving up on it which is what Anna has asked me to do a few times now.

Alan

I foolishly bought one like that and redoing the work is soul destroying as reference points are hard to find. Underseal certainly has a lot to answer for. If I was in that situation again, I would cut my losses and sell it on with honesty about the car's condition and find a good one. I tell myself that as I'd travelled 500 miles to buy it I wasn't going home without it (1 way plane ticket - lesson learned).

Pete

[warweezil]

I've never understood how some people are happy to simply slap a patch on top of rust. I guess the bodge mentality comes from a lack pride.

I prefer to cut back to good metal and start from there, In the past when my father did the welding after I had prepped the area I took a pride from knowing it would be a neat job when finished, and although it would be seen not to be "original" it was a good quality repair that would stand the test of time.

Right now I am almost at the stage of prepping many areas of my project beast for repair, although I have chosen to buy replacement panels for much of the work but this will be plug welded and seam sealed afterwards. I aim to keep this car for a while and hate doing the same job twice. I could "patch" the underside with sheet metal but in my case that would be more labour intensive cutting and shaping - its easier to buy the correctly shaped panels, Those "experts" who put so much faith in replacement panels might stop to consider the poor quality of many pattern parts before condemning a good quality repair formed from ordinary sheet steel! I have seen some terrible repairs done with poor quality pattern panels that were woefully inadequate.

Id sooner have an ugly looking repair that was strong rather than a pretty looking but weak repair made from a cheap and nasty copy panel

[LUR759H]

Guys Id just like to clarify the inside has had new British made replacement panels and the sections replaced are from the cross member and all under the back seats section there is like a dome shape on each side just behind the axle and the shape cant be seen on the inside these have only been welded on the inside it might be fine to simply cut out the outside rusty sections with an angle grinder and see where it takes me. Looking from the inside the whole thing looks perfect so i must be able to cut out the rubbish, I might have to buy another grinder and welder just to get the floor sorted but it will be worth it in the end.

Alan

PS thanks for your replies... ill post more pics asap

[kevin s]

The problem with many of these type of repairs is that they bridge the original joints, mine had patches from underneath over the bottom of the floor /sill area and would have passed an mot but start pulling it appart and it becomes obvious the vertical face of the inner sill is no longer securely fixed to the floor significantly weakening the structure.

[mike.perry]

I am in the process of having the underside of my Series MM repaired after finding that patches had been welded over the top of rust when the car was in for restoration a few years go. I found out when poking around under the car and saw the patches had started to lift off exposing what was underneath which was not a pretty sight.
The patching was carried out by a well known firm, well two people, who should have known better considering the "Do you know who I am" routine. I did not actually say that because they knew who I was and I had expected them to do a good job which would be a recommendation to other potential customers.
The person carrying out the remedial work is on his own and operates from a disused farm building. He takes pride in his work and insists on doing a proper repair.
The car does not need an MOT and if I had not been poking around underneath the car could have been driven around for years until the floor dropped out

[kennatt]

Its all relative, and how concerned you are on originality,it depends on how much of a panel is rusted out. Think floor pan .If its a small area,it's got to be better leaving the bulk of the original factory spot welding in place and welding (properly by cutting and butt welding) a patch in.For example the only area on my 55 floor that was holed, was an area above the heat shield ,that had prevented all the oil and underseal giving complete protection after each yearly treatment that it used to get. A 2" by 12" strip welded in, has lasted for the last 15 Years,and with the shield left off ,deiberately,I can apply oil on a regular basis ,to that area.
. Same applies to chassis,a hole in an otherwise sound chassis is better repaired ,again properly,than disturbing the whole leg.
But have to agree that some work by so called pros, leaves a lot to be desired. Without naming the classic dealer(I'd be shot by the mods) I once was had a look at a Minor1000 on behalf of an interested member who lived some distance away.
Without listing all the mech faults,underneath, there had been a sheet of steel welded full length each side,from the floor to the outer undersill,covering all the rest of the sill structure.It would have to be passed by the mot because he can't strip (to look inside the sill) by taking the covers off. Bet there was nothing much left inside except rust dust. He didn't buy it
.

[Coalmossian]

I am a child of the fifties (well, almost) and spent time as a student in the early seventies, and that was when I honed my body restoration skills to perfection!
As anyone from that era will know, all good rust repairs involve fibreglass matting and a suitable two-part filler paste, or gloopy, syrup-like resin with a white powdery filler. Should it be a box section, crumpled up newspaper can ba pushed in to give the repair some support. If it was a really crucial structural repair, aluminium mesh could also be used.
All this welding.........totally unnecessary!
I even remember a friend repairing structural box sections using two-part polyurethane expanding foam which could be easily shaped prior to the application of a glass fibre skin!
Maybe we should be truly thankful for the introduction of MOT's?

[kevin s]

Reminds me of an allegro my sister in law bought many years ago, looked immaculate and with a years mot, 6 weeks later one complete lower rear quarter fell out, filler over newspaper, the date on the newspaper, 2 weeks before she bought it. The rest of the lower car wasn't much better and then when winter came round it had so little compression it would not start. She traded it in while it still had some ticket left and bought a chevette losing a load of cash in the process.

[warweezil]

I am a child of the fifties (well, almost) and spent time as a student in the early seventies, and that was when I honed my body restoration skills to perfection!
As anyone from that era will know, all good rust repairs involve fibreglass matting and a suitable two-part filler paste, or gloopy, syrup-like resin with a white powdery filler. Should it be a box section, crumpled up newspaper can ba pushed in to give the repair some support. If it was a really crucial structural repair, aluminium mesh could also be used.
All this welding.........totally unnecessary!
I even remember a friend repairing structural box sections using two-part polyurethane expanding foam which could be easily shaped prior to the application of a glass fibre skin!
Maybe we should be truly thankful for the introduction of MOT's?

I can go one better - even though many refuse to believe it - a Citroen GS that a friend owned in 1983 that had been repaired by the box sections being filled with cement. I am certain that one area had actually been shuttered in order to shape it. Prior to that I once repaired a Simca 1100 special that had much of the rear floor coated with filler, a lot of gas and rods went into that one, happily my father did all the welding in those days - maybe thats why he has a bad back now. although the MOT has weeded out much of the bodgery that used to go on - its still happening from time to time.

[faversham999]

My first Morris minor in 1970 I bought 4 underfloor panels from the mag Exchange & Mart, that you used evostick to glue under the car it worked as it passed its mot those were the days (hid everything)

[DAVIDMCCULLOUGH]

You know the old story, you buy an old in the dark without having a really good look. You get it home and yes it needs a bit of welding here and there, get the grinder and tin snips out only to find fibre glass matting and resin expertly applied over rust and even painted in shiney almond green

I have spent many hours lying under minors peeling off multiple layers of rotten patches before you get to sound metal, and yes that car might not have survived the scrapper at all without the odd MOT patch, but its so much better to do the job properly just the once than have to spent more time and money doing it again in 2 or 3 years when its rotten through again.

I have one of those old cover sills hanging up in the garage, it came with a job lot of minor panels I acquired a few years ago. I also earlier this year saw a really clean looking convertible for sale that had had a very expensive respray and re trim and underneath, a full set of cover sills hiding a headache for the next owner. I hope they didnt get caught out.

[Matt]

My traveller had 4 floorpans and no sills when I got it it now has the correct amount of both...