Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

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288NNM
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Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Hi,
Just could do with a little advice. I am running a 1964 1098cc Morris Minor engine. It has what I believe is the original distributor with the copper vacuum pipe from the carburetor which has a sort of small 2 inch long domed ended cylinder which is attached by bracket and bolt to the front end of the cylinder head above the water pump. The vacuum pipe has broken and there was gaffer tape connecting it to the vacuum chamber down by the distributor.
I have made a better bodge but its still a bodge. My question is if I was to buy an electronic ignition Ackuspark or similar does this upgrade negate the use of the vacuum pipe and advance/retard and bell housing component? I quite like the original copper vacuum pipe and dome ended cylinder as original features. I would like to retain them but realise working components like these must be like rocking horse do dar! The advance and retard screw I believe is broken as when turned either way it does not klick on adjustment as I have been told it should.
Any advice on which way forward would be appreciated as I realise my bodge although seems to work is not a lasting solution and electronic contact-less points I think is the way forward for me as I a trying to resolve a lack of power under labour and a feeling the engine is not performing to its best. I am prepared to commit to a new destributer would i have to go with the thin plastic vacuum pipe to a new destributer if thats the way forward?

Kind regards,

Paul
Trickydicky
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by Trickydicky »

The part you need is here,part 25, http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-mo ... 46a97.html
Yes you would still need the the vapour trap regardless of ignition type. If the pipe is snapped then you could try connecting it together with some plastic tubing as a stop gap.
Richard

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288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Thanks Richard,
I have got the page and the component I would need. The vacuum chamber on mine has a woven fabric type material which extends about 2 to 3 inches from the top of the trumpet shape. I am suspecting this is not OE as the nut on the disributor end of the vacuum pipe is threaded with what I imagine is an olive which is very well secured. I presume this should attach to a threaded collar at the trumpet.Have you ever seen such a woven connector pipe. Should there be some threaded section on its end to connect the nut to? Or is this an old bodge, I dare not give it a good pull or the whole trumpet arrangement may come off with it! Are they supposed to be a little loose because this one is. Advice of any nature will be listened to.
Regards,
Paul
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by Trickydicky »

Can you post a pic of your current setup? It sounds like it is non standard.

Here is a link to the makeup of the vacuum advance on the distributor. http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/ho ... ibutor.php
Richard

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simmitc
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by simmitc »

The woven fabric is probably covering a piece of rubber tube. The original dizzy had a vacuum advance with a screw connection to the metal pipe. Later vacuum units had a push fit connector where the hose was used ot join to the pipe, a bit like at the carb end. Later pipes were all plastic and did not have the vapour trap. I have seen electronic dizzys with different styles of vacuum unit, so make sure that you plan ahead and get the correct components to connect everything together - the pipes and connectors are not expensive.
288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Will do. The woven (braided) section of pipe attached to the vacuum unit is not what I have seen previously. Additionally I read that this issue could be symptomatic of the engines lack of power when climbing hills. Although I realise this could be caused by many other possibilities.

Regards,

Paul
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Hi Simmitic,

You were right it was a rubber pipe with a woven material over the top. I finally had the guts to give it a good pull and off it came. The Vacuum unit still seems to be quite loose on its cast housing/casing. Surely thats not right? Please find attached images Richard showing my initial modification with my MK2 modification ( fewer connections) If my handy work doesn't make you either smile or laugh then your taking life too seriously. Is the general feeling that a lack of power could possibly be due to the poor fit of the vacuum housing and the fact that when adjusting the advance/retard micrometer adjustment nut it does not klick in a notchy type of way?
Images not quite in the order I planned. However, they're on. Top image final bodge with fewer connections. Middle image how it was after first attempt this weekend. Third image the plethora of different sized clear plastic pipes, bicycle cable connectors and brand new black insulation tape. Lower image the type of distributor on the car incidentally with the MK1 modification.

Cheers folks,

Paul[frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame]
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by simmitc »

That's not a standard vacuum unit, the tube (whether threaded or push fit) would come out from the centre rather than the side. It probably doesn't make any difference, but could do if the unit performs differently. The lack of a click is probably a missing spring plate at the other end of the unit, should locate between the knurled knob and the body of the dizzy.

I thought that all the 1098 engines had the push fit vacuum units and that the old metal pipes were on the 948 engines. I stand to be corrected, but I wonder whether a previous owner has swapped bits around - quite common over the years.

You can check if the vacuum is working: Remove the cap so that you can see inside the dizzy. Remove the pipe from the carb and suck on it - be wary of petrol that might be in the pipe, don't swallow any! Does the plate carrying the points move towards the vacuum unit and then spring back when you stop sucking? It should be quite a clear movement.
288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Hi,
Thanks for the speedy response I have had a chap who commented that he thought it was not a standard Morris distributor. He guessed it could be off a Mini. The next step is the pre fire eater. Just hope either me or the copper pipe are flexible enough for me to get my laughing gear around the pipe and suck! If movement is apparent then it works. Which might be awkward as I will struggle to know where to go from there. However, no movement only further moves me towards new components with reason to if it does not seem to be functioning correctly.
Cheers
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by bmcecosse »

The 'trap' does nothing useful and was eliminated on later engines - just pipe it direct to the dizzy with (obviously) a non - collapsible tubing
ImageImage
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288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Well folks,
Ran some 500 grade wet & dry between the fuel pump and distributor points this morning. Turned the non rachet advance a few turns and just about nearly broke down after a few miles. Once the engine got hot and was ticking over in a lay- by as it had seriously lost power going up a slight gradient. I took stock as to what to do? Once I decided to turn around and head home it began to missfire like never before. I could only achieve second gear, finally having to drop to first. The exhaust was popping and banging. I was concerned I would damage the exhaust or worse engine!
It limped home as fortunately it was mostly downhill. On tick over it seems ok. Once its hot it looses the plot. Took the plugs out they were a light brown colour with soot around the threaded rim nearest to the end of the threaded cylinder section of the plugs. Which incidentally are NGK BP E6 S (are these ok?) Incidently the fuel pump seems to click 5-7 times inquick sucession then makes no more noise for several seconds is this normal?
The car does not seem to have much power when under load, and misses worryingly when its been standing still ticking over or is in slow moving traffic. Could it be the combo of tired points on the petrol pump and a less than perfect distributor?
Any thoughts would be most welcome as im going nowhere at the moment in it. It seems like the engine lacks power then at times pulls as if the timing gets it right for a few seconds, most frustrating as the sunny days grow shorter.
Cheers,

Paul
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by Trickydicky »

The fuel pump sounds about right, remember it's controlled by the float chamber in the carb so only delivers fuel as the float drops down. I would be buying a complete new electronic ignition dizzy from Accuspark as the one you have fitted and have been advised about is incorrect for the engine and the symptoms you describe are ignition related.
Has it always played up or has it just started?
Richard

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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by Declan_Burns »

If you buy (and I wouldn't do it again)an Accuspark distributor then buy a decent distributor cap as the Accuspark caps are pure rubbish. I have gone through two of them in the last year with problems of premature carbon brush failure. Here is a source:
http://www.distributordoctor.com/

Regards
Declan


Regards
Declan
288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Its played up from the outset. The chap who had it before did 100 miles in a year and only used it to pop to the allotment and local shops. Possibly the chances are he never got it at full working temperature or got stuck in traffic. It has however deteriorated since I have done almost 1000 miles in it. I do have my suspicions on the fuel pump. As it has needed a tap to click it into life recently and on inspection of the teminals ( two contacts on one copper arm) it looked like one graphite? contact had no ring of graphite on it? Dont know if it is supposed to look like that? It has from the outset felt like it was not delivering its full potential. And recently the power loss up hill has began to play an increasing role. But when the engine gets hot it make lots of noise and gives you whiplash!
Been pricing up a new distributor and having it electric and at around £250 for the full monty (Coil, HT leads and cap, and dizzy) i want to make the right choice.
Thanks for all your input chaps a bit of knowledge is better than days/weeks of naval contemplation.
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by Trickydicky »

The simplest way to test the pump is to disconnect it from the carb and pump a pint or so into a container after giving the points a clean, it should manage it in a minute or so.
If it were me I would be changing the complete distributor first on its own, resetting the timing and then moving forward from there.
Changing too many parts at once will only compound the problem and you could introduce new issues as there are questions regarding modern replacements. Old Coils tend to be reliable, the HT leads, if they look ok and are not cracked again tend to be reliable. Another simple way to check the HT leads is to start the engine in the dark and look and see if there are any stray sparks.
Last edited by Trickydicky on Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Richard

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288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Richard,
Do you mean just turn the ignition on and let it do its own thing. Then after a minute or so there should be about a pint of petrol in a container that would have gone to the carburettor had the pipe been connected? I am in agreement about changing too many components at once I could compound the situation.
Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by Trickydicky »

Yep, that's the way to test it. The pump will stop pumping when connected to the carb because of the float valve closing when the chamber is full.
Richard

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288NNM
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by 288NNM »

Will undertake further investigation at the weekend, thanks for all the feedback folks. Thank goodness its not my daily driver. Will use a systematic approach and try to isolate component by component ..... well thats the plan!
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by liammonty »

I have to disagree regarding new coils being reliable - they are notoriously unreliable. I have been left totally stranded due to coils less than 12 months old failing, and sometimes when they begin to fail, the symptoms are that they are fine when cold, but as the engine warms up and particularly when you put the engine under extra load, they begin to cause a worsening heavy misfire. It is worth bearing in mind, despite what others may say about it never being the coil at fault. Of course, your problem could well be something else.
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Re: Distributor and Vacuum advance/retard component.

Post by dudload »

just noticed that you mentioned the total cost being around £250 - that seems quite high. new coil and electronic dizzy from accuspark is around £89, with leads being around a fiver?? if you're being quoted £250, shop around!
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