Rear lights

[Mfhphil]

Hi,
This is my first post following my failed attempt to find to find an answer using the forum search facility. My other half is the proud owner of a 1959 convertible that has got the combined lighting/indicator rear lights fitted, that I think are from a later model. She would like the period lights fitted which I thought wouldn’t be a problem until I saw images of two other 1959 cars. One had just single red light units, and the other had the same but with a round indicator light unit mounted a little higher.
So am I right thinking that the ones we have are wrong, and if so what should we have?
Thanks

Phil

[palacebear]

Sounds like you have rear lights (and possibly front lights too?) from a 1963-onwards car.... a common modification/lighting upgrade to eliminate semaphore trafficator arms which aren't ideal for modern road conditions.
1959 car would have (ex-factory) just red stop/tail light on each rear wing; no flashing indicator. Just white side-lamp on each front wing; no flashing indicator, and of course, would have had semaphore trafficator arms in the body sides.

Follow the link below for more info:

www.potteries.mmoc.org.uk/Identification.htm

Scroll down to 'Lighting' section and browse through it all. You should be able to figure out what you should have!

[Mfhphil]

Thanks for the reply palacebear, the cars never had semaphores and it’s got the indicator switch/horn push combined, with the amber light on top, so that’s what made me think it should have indicators all round. After reading the link you gave me, it sounds like the red lamp flashed as an indicator.
And you’re right about the front lights, they’re a combined indicator/sidelight, which are from a later model.
So thanks for your help and a pretty quick solution.
Just need her indoors to release the pressure on her purse strings now

Phil

[myoldjalopy]

If its a 1959 model it would have originally had semaphores - maybe someone removed them and filled in the slots? Your indicator/horn switch would have operated the semaphores.
The two images you saw - the first, with the single red rear lamp is, as 'palace bear' explained, the original set-up for a 1959 model with factory fitted trafficators/semaphores. The second image, with the round indicator fitted above, is a common (period) modification to replace/augment the semaphores.
You may wish to check your front lights as well if going for originality - 1959 would have only had a headlamp and a single white sidelight on each wing. Again, later modifications may have involved fitting a round, orange indicator diagonally below the sidelight - or even replacing the single sidelight with the combined sidelight/indicator used on the later 1098 models - which you say you have.

[myoldjalopy]

Just to add to the above - if you have the later 1098 combined indicator/lamps fitted front and back then you probably have the later wings fitted with the holes to take these, so the wings will have to be modified to take the original lighting equipment which uses different size/placing of the holes......

[palacebear]

Assuming you're in the UK and the car wasn't originally an export version, I agree with MyOldJalopy. If it's a UK market 1959 car with the switch you describe (which was replaced by a later type circa March 1959) it would most definitely have left the factory with semaphore trafficator arms. Possibly had the trafficator slots expertly filled in, welded up or removed by other means...? Less likely, but not impossible, it's somehow acquired a later body shell during it's life. A couple of pics might help us arrive at a conclusion!

For info. Last cars with semaphore were built August 1961. Changeover chassis numbers as follows:
2-dr: MA2S3/925555
4-dr: MAS3/925448
Conv:MAT3/926579
Trav: MAW3/925679

As a further thought, maybe consider how the car will be used. If a daily driver, used in all weathers or used regularly in the dark, I personally would think twice before discarding the lights you have now... they're much more visible than the earlier types.

[Mfhphil]

Thanks for all the replies.
I’ll dig out the paperwork tomorrow. There’s everything that’s ever been spent on the car including the purchase receipt, so maybe any mods will be in there, and I’ll take a couple of photographs and upload them

Phil

[palacebear]

If you're able, maybe let us know the chassis/VIN number (shown on V5 reg. document if available or if not, from plate on driver's side of front bulkhead) but FOR YOUR SECURITY don't quote the whole number here. Show the last three digits as asterisks e.g. MAS3/987***

[Mfhphil]

If you're able, maybe let us know the chassis/VIN number (shown on V5 reg. document if available or if not, from plate on driver's side of front bulkhead) but FOR YOUR SECURITY don't quote the whole number here. Show the last three digits as asterisks e.g. MAS3/987***

The VIN/chassis number is MAT3/703***
I’ve been through all of the paperwork that came with the car and the only bodywork invoice I can find is for a replacement front wing due to accident damage.
I’ve never been as confused with trying to find exact year information details as I am with this car . Weren’t semaphores operated with a dash mounted rotary switch.
With reference to the newer lights being preferable for nighttime driving, the car will be used for summer/dry driving only and attending shows, hence the preference for period fittings (but not if it means installing semaphores)

Phil

[palacebear]

Thank you for posting the info, Phil.
The partial chassis number you quote is for a convertible and the manufacture date can be narrowed down to late 1958/early 1959. Hence provided it's a UK market car it would definitely have had trafficators when new.
Dash-mounted rotary trafficator switches were discontinued when split-screen car production ended (Sept 1956).

Switch types as follows (all dates slightly approximate):
Sep 1956 to Oct 1957 - Trafficators operated by stalk switch (not self cancelling), also working horn. Warning light in speedo.

Oct 1957 to Mar 1959 - Trafficators operated by stalk switch (not self-cancelling), also working horn. Warning light on steering column mounting or quadrant. Warning light should have a metal flip-over 'shield' to eliminate night-time dazzle!
This sounds like the switch you have fitted

Mar 1959 to Aug 1961 - Trafficators operated by self-cancelling switch with warning light on end of stalk. Horn push relocated to steering wheel centre.

Aug 1961 to Aug 1963 - same switch but flashing indicators (red rear and white front).

Aug 1963 to end of production - same switch again but enlarged light clusters incorporating amber flashing indicators.
These are the light clusters you have fitted if I understand correctly.

To slightly confuse matters, off-the-shelf conversion kits to install flashing indicators on ANY trafficator-equipped vehicle (not just Morris) used to be available and came with four amber-lensed lights (one for each corner), a flasher unit and a rotary switch. I'm sure quite a few Minors had them retro-fitted during the 1960's/70s and may still survive.

For your intended use and if you wish to reinstate original-pattern lights front and rear, you will most likely, as MyOldJalopy pointed out yesterday, have to eliminate some unwanted holes from the wings when the current lights are removed, and possibly make some new holes too! If you don't want trafficators you can always consider fitting flasher lamps beneath the bumpers. Halfords do some quite discreet ones (intended for motorcycles but still 12 volt) with decent brightness LED bulbs, but negative earth only. I believe the mountings lend themselves to fitting beneath Minor bumpers with just a little modification.

[Mfhphil]

Wow!! I honestly didn’t expect the response I’ve received, so quick and the vehicle knowledge is amazing.
Thanks to all who replied for taking the time to help and especially palacebear, it’s really very humbling.
Her indoors needs to decide how close to period she’d like to get the car without spending silly money.
She’s called Matilda by the way (the car, not the wife)

Phil

[palacebear]

It's no problem Phil. These are the kind of questions the forum exists to answer.

I'm a bit more geeky (or anorak-ish) than many, and I have time on my hands to find information where possible. To be honest I can take no credit for the info I've posted in this thread. It's all been drawn from the book 'Original Morris Minor' written by Ray Newell our club chairman. It's a very good work of reference, going in great detail into the many seemingly quite small changes which the Minor underwent during its production life.

Hope you enjoy Matilda. We all like photos on the forum, so some pics of Matilda would be appreciated when you have time!

[geoberni]

Basil, my '55 SII has recently undergone some retro changes.

When we brought him last year, he had :
A) trafficators fitted but not connected,
B) L488 type Amber indicators front/rear
C) Sidelights in headlights.

I've now changed this to
A) enabling the Trafficators which are now fitted with flashing LED lamps. They operate with the indicators, but I can disable via a switch.
(Because the car has the 61-63 wiring with the huge DB10 relay in the indicator circuit, it was easy to pick up a steady supply from the indicator switch for L or R trafficator)
B) Front indicators fitted with amber LED lamps but clear lenses, so they look like white sidelights when not operating.
C) Rear indicators fitted with Red lenses instead of Amber.

So he looks a bit more 'period' front and rear, without having to worry about replacing the rear wings to get rid of the indicator holes

Oh, and it's all operated by a Dash mounted Lucas SD84 type switch. which I believe isn't the original type fitted.

[Mfhphil]

Left the guard dog in charge of Matilda
Phil

[SteveClem]

Don't they look just right with the bonnet up?

[palacebear]

Nice looking car!

[Mfhphil]

Nice looking car!

Thank you

Phil

[Mfhphil]

Nice looking car!

Thank you

Phil

[Mfhphil]

Nice looking car!

Thank you

Phil