Starter solenoid on the way out?

[Napoleon Boot]

Quick question - just recently when turning the key, instead of hearing the starter motor, I'm just getting a clunk. After two or three goes, the starter will operate and the engine will start. The battery is new and fully charged, I got one with high cold cranking amps so there's plenty of oomph when the starter engages.

Does this sound like the starter solenoid may be on its last legs? I checked and all the wiring is in good order and the connections are clean and tight.

Seb

[simmitc]

Most likely "yes". Next time it happens, use a jump lead between the two thick terminals on the solenoid. If the starter spins away then it's the solenoid at fault; if the starter still won't turn then it's the motor. The solenoid is a replacement, the motor can be replaced or serviced. A separate test is to use the square shaft on the end of the starter motor with a spanner. Turn it a little way round (either way) and then see if the key works.

[geoberni]

A heavy Clunk or a feeble one?

It could be the bendix sticking and not engaging correctly, perhaps not a bad connection since you say you've checked all is clean, or perhaps the solenoid.
I'd be checking to see if there is 12v output from the solenoid every time.
Does the solenoid have the button top that you can push while under the bonnet, or can you only operate it on the key?

Another thing you could do:
Disconnect the battery Earth (as you don't want the live cable arching onto something), and then disconnect both connections on the solenoid.
Connect a multimeter set to ohms across the 2 main terminals and operate the solenoid. It should be a negligable Zero reading when operated. If you get a few ohms, or a variable readings, then the coil is probably duff.

[Napoleon Boot]

Thanks both for the excellent suggestions! I'll try using the multimeter on the solenoid first. It's the kind with a red button on, but nothing happens when I press it. I'm assuming it's a relay operated by the key, and the red button manually closes the switch? I might not be pushing hard enough of course! Here's a picture:

IMG_8275.jpg (141.41 KiB) Viewed 2713 times

A heavy Clunk or a feeble one?

Sort of in between - it doesn't sound feeble but it doesn't sound heavy enough to be the starter bendix, I assumed it was the solenoid closing. Like a good solid click.

I hope it is the solenoid, it's a lot easier to get to than the starter motor which is a very tight fit on my car!

[geoberni]

You said ...

I checked and all the wiring is in good order and the connections are clean and tight.

That doesn't look to be the case from that photo The nearest terminal seems to be quite brown and rusty.

It's the kind with a red button on, but nothing happens when I press it.

Is the Red cover soft or hard?
Sometimes they have a button under a soft cover, other times it's just a hard plastic cover and you can't press it.
From past experience, it tends to be older originals that were made with the push button; it's been missed off in more recent ones.

[Napoleon Boot]

That doesn't look to be the case from that photo The nearest terminal seems to be quite brown and rusty.

Yes, it doesn't look so good in the photo - I'll give it a go with a wire brush and some switch cleaner. The battery terminals under the dust caps are all shiny though.

Is the Red cover soft or hard?
Sometimes they have a button under a soft cover, other times it's just a hard plastic cover and you can't press it.

Ah, that may be why I can't push it! Seems fairly hard. I'm just waiting for the paint to dry on the air filter housing, which I brought inside to clean up - when I refit it I'll investigate the solenoid further....

[geoberni]

Starter Solenoids are typically designed to pull in with anything more than about 5.5 / 6 volts, although the Starter itself won't do a lot if the battery is that low.
So the Clunk you are hearing may be the Solenoid coil operating, but the main contacts aren't always closing correctly. Try it plenty of times with the meter across it and it should always be a consistent reading, around 1-2 ohms when closed.

[Napoleon Boot]

Checked the battery voltage, and it's 12.7 volts with the engine off; I tried turning the key and typically the engine started immediately!
Had a look at the starter solenoid, and then it came back to me. When I was investigating my starting problem last year (which turned out to be a broken drive plate), I found that the car has a pre-engaged starter with the solenoid attached to the starter. It's very difficult to photograph or even to look at. The wiring diagram from the previous owner refers to a 'redundant starter solenoid' and the cables pass through and down to the solenoid on the starter. That explains why the red button on the original solenoid (which is squishy) doesn't do anything.

I'll have a read about pre-engaged starters tonight and see if I can find out more about this one. I'll clean up all the connections tomorrow, hopefully that's the root of the problem as I don't fancy trying to replace it! I'll check it with the multimeter too.

Seb

[geoberni]

Oy vey!!
and other phrases come to mind.

When I first replied to your question, I actually started to write a question to check as to what sort of starter you had, because being a SII owner, I didn't know what a latter car might have.
But then I checked the manual and saw that a pre-engaged type is never mentioned as being a fit on Minors, so I assumed you had a regular Bendix type.

Basically, a conventional Bendix Starter spins around and centrifugal force throws the toothed cog on the starter forward to engage with the flywheel and the next thing you know it's spinning the engine over. So basically the starter forces itself onto the flywheel.

A pre-engaged has the Solenoid integrated on the top of it.
As the solenoid core moves in the direction of making the switch contacts to turn the starter over, it is operating a lever that moves the starter cog to engage with the flywheel. At the same time as the cog engages, the switch makes and the starter spins. Hence the 'pre-engaged' tag.
It may be a connection problem, but you could very well be removing the Starter.

I can't imagine why the previous owner used a Pre-engaged, unless they came by it cheap somehow.
They can cost nearly twice as much as a simple bendix model.

I love my SII Pull start!!

edited to add:
I just found this really simple diagrammatic illustration of the differences.
https://www.howacarworks.com/ignition-s ... rter-motor

[Napoleon Boot]

I can't imagine why the previous owner used a Pre-engaged, unless they came by it cheap somehow.
They can cost nearly twice as much as a simple bendix model.

Yep, I think most of the replacement parts are secondhand bits that were to hand at the time the car was being restored, and now I'm replacing them one by one... wiper motor, coil, distributor cap, alternator - that's just this year! On the plus side, each part I replace is hopefully one less part to go wrong in future...

Thanks for the explanation and the link, makes a bit more sense now. I had also assumed that I had the standard Bendix type until a moment ago! Hopefully as it's intermittent, it's a loose or dirty connection somewhere, I cleaned the engine bay for the first time last week which might have dislodged something.

I love my SII Pull start!!

Well I still have plan B in the boot - the starting handle!

[simmitc]

Looking at your photo of the standard solenoid, we can see that the thick cable from the battery and the one to the starter are both on the same terminal. Also, the with with red tracer wire is not connected to the side terminal that actuates the solenoid. That backs up that the standard solenoid is redundant. I was puzzled by your earlier comment that the starer was tight to get to since the standard one is held on by two easily accessible bolts.

Now that we know that we're looking at a pre-engaged starter, I can recall having one on a (wash my mouth out) Honda Civic, and that developed exactly the same symptoms as you describe. The clunk is the starter engaging but because the contacts are worn, the motor does not turn over. Remove the starter, replace with a standard unit, and re-wire the standard solenoid for correct operation - as it stands, the starter would run permanently.

[StillGotMy1stCar]

Don’t rush out and buy an inertia starter as originally fitted.
You have the pre-engaged starter because I expect the normal starter won’t fit with your automatic transmission. The bendix is long and I doubt it will fit within the bell housing or may hit the torque convertor.
The ring gear would also need turning around if you reverted back to the inertia type starter.
Regards John

[geoberni]

John makes a very good point.
It is most probably that whatever auto gearbox is fitted decreed the starter that had to be used and the original type simply can't be fitted.
As you can see from the link I gave last night, the Bendix type has a considerably longer protrusion into the bell housing because it engages from behind the flywheel, whereas the pre-engaged comes at it from in front.

If you look on youtube for "Solenoid change on Starter Motor" there's plenty of guys on their changing a Solenoid or even in one case I saw, just replacing the contacts part of the Solenoid.

[simmitc]

Automatic box? There was no mention of that in the original question, and it looks as though geoberni and I were both giving advice based on a standard Minor. The moral of the story is that when posting questions, will everyone please state if they've got non-standard parts fitted so that we can give the best advice. John might know your car, but the rest of us have to rely on what's written in the post.

[Napoleon Boot]

Looking at your photo of the standard solenoid, we can see that the thick cable from the battery and the one to the starter are both on the same terminal. Also, the with with red tracer wire is not connected to the side terminal that actuates the solenoid. That backs up that the standard solenoid is redundant.

Thanks, that helps me connect what I'm seeing with the wiring diagram I got with the car. I had a Google last night and saw that this is a common change on Minis, as per this thread: http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/inde ... tid=487001

I can recall having one on a (wash my mouth out) Honda Civic, and that developed exactly the same symptoms as you describe. The clunk is the starter engaging but because the contacts are worn, the motor does not turn over.

That sounds quite plausible!

You have the pre-engaged starter because I expect the normal starter won’t fit with your automatic transmission. The bendix is long and I doubt it will fit within the bell housing or may hit the torque convertor.

Thanks John, I noticed the greater protuberence on the diagrams and thought a standard bendix might not fit.

If you look on youtube for "Solenoid change on Starter Motor" there's plenty of guys on their changing a Solenoid or even in one case I saw, just replacing the contacts part of the Solenoid.

I'll have a look at some videos, it's a shame that I can't find any markings on the actual starter to work out what make or model it is!
*EDIT* It looks very much like a Lucas M79 starter motor which was used on late Minis, which makes sense.

Automatic box? There was no mention of that in the original question, and it looks as though geoberni and I were both giving advice based on a standard Minor.

It does say in my signature, and I added a photo showing the badge saying "Morris 1000 Automatic"! The Toyota A40 transmission is attached to the original 1098 engine, the ring gear is a standard Morris type, just attached to a specially made drive plate rather than a flywheel. Generally it's a normal Traveller. Maybe I should change my username to make it clearer - autoseb? I'm not that attached to Napoleon Boot which is just a pseudonym I've used in the past. Nevertheless, apologies for the confusion and lack of clarity.

[simmitc]

Fair points, I must admit that I don't read the signatures and the picture was just a bit of a very nice looking Traveller. I quite fancy an auto box myself but it's something that I've never got round to doing.

[Napoleon Boot]

Fair points, I must admit that I don't read the signatures and the picture was just a bit of a very nice looking Traveller. I quite fancy an auto box myself but it's something that I've never got round to doing.

No problem, I should have made it clearer. I've got to say, it drives a dream in traffic with an auto box which is useful living in the city! I can still limit it to first or second gear which is good for engine braking on hills. I just miss the whine of the original gear box, but I still get the burble from the exhaust on overrun.

Seb

[geoberni]

I realised the car was an automatic, but I then kind of forgot about that being a probable reason the Starter could be different.
I didn't associate the two.
Not having a Solenoid Start anyway, I didn't know what the connections on the Solenoid should look like.

I'm guessing you'll find a problem with the contacts closing correctly and it'll hopefully just be a solenoid change.
If the supply to it is Good, all terminals clean and secure, I'd be tempted to just take it off anyway. Having done that you should find the model number somewhere.

[Napoleon Boot]

I realised the car was an automatic, but I then kind of forgot about that being a probable reason the Starter could be different.
I didn't associate the two.
Not having a Solenoid Start anyway, I didn't know what the connections on the Solenoid should look like.

I'm guessing you'll find a problem with the contacts closing correctly and it'll hopefully just be a solenoid change.
If the supply to it is Good, all terminals clean and secure, I'd be tempted to just take it off anyway. Having done that you should find the model number somewhere.

Thanks Geoberni; it's only an intermittent fault and typically when I drove her just now, she started first time again, so maybe it's gone away? (Yeah, right...)
Just thought I'd get ahead of the game by figuring out the cause before it failed completely. I'll investigate with the multimeter next time it plays up.

In the meantime, I've just jacked up the rear to sort the handbrake, and found a much more concerning problem, which I'll start a new thread for in the relevant section. I'm sure she'll be a really reliable car once I've replaced or fixed everything, but it's not been plain sailing. I think I'll keep the latest problem a secret from my other half as she's not entirely convinced that running an old car is a good idea and this will just give her more ammunition...

Seb

[Napoleon Boot]

I'm waiting for a new starter solenoid to be delivered, and not before time as last night at the allotment the car wouldn't start at all - not so much as a clunk. The pre-engaged starter is mounted very low at the back of the engine bay and I couldn't really see the terminals I'd need to bridge to hot wire it, so I went for plan B - a bit of percussive engineering with the starting handle. Couple of whacks, tried the key again and the engine sprang into life.

Needless to say, as I was fumbling away trying to fix it, with sweat dripping into my eyes, a neighbouring plotholder came over to gloat, while providing no help at all. I think he's been waiting for a chance ever since he first saw my old Traveller.

When we got home, I had some strong words with Peggy about showing me up, and she responded by biting me (well, I burnt my bare shin on the exhaust pipe).
I've read up on these starters on the classic Mini forums (they were fitted from 1985 onwards) and replacing the solenoid looks quick and straightforward. I hope it is just the solenoid to blame, as getting the whole starter out looks more involved - particularly in this heat...

Seb