Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

for those with Series MM sidevalve cars produced between September 1948 and February 1953

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sirrom918
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby sirrom918 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:19 am

I'm reasonably certain the following screw-on oil filters will be shorter than the one you've received with the adaptor unit. Google these reference numbers and you should be able to find out the filter length.
Crossland 547
Fram PH 2834
Mahle OC 4

philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Thu May 02, 2019 3:21 pm

http://www.sogefifilterdivision.com/cat ... AM&lang=GB

If the above link is interrogated the overall size/dimensions and threads of the screw on filters can be determined.


DAVIDMCCULLOUGH
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby DAVIDMCCULLOUGH » Thu May 02, 2019 4:48 pm

Im fairly certain that club spares has the rest of the batch of sump plugs that Mike had made.


Too many Minors so little time.....

gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 02, 2019 8:06 pm

Just been on the phone to Bryan and Club Spare never did get hold of those plugs - Moss Europe it is then.
My sump plug, now removed, has been rounded off!
IMG_20190502_143743.jpg
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The 2 bolts on the right are (left bolt) off the car, (right bolt) with the adapter kit.
I've got the oil filter and "holder" off the car with no sign of any gasket, just a small trace of a "blue hylomar" type mastic.
IMG_20190502_140550.jpg
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IMG_20190502_140612.jpg
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The new oil adapter bolt looks to be a "fine" thread, but the original is a course one and they don't match.
IMG_20190502_143751.jpg
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If I do use the "tractor" fitting, then I will have to get shorter bolts of the type that were removed.
The Gearbox drain plug (same head size as the sump one) was also "finger tight" - it is a wonder that the engine retained oil, better check what is left in the gearbox :(
George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Thu May 02, 2019 9:10 pm

I can remember my original engine drain plug was a diecast job which actually developed a crack at the base of the thread rendering it 'highly suspect'!
Both my drain plugs that are fitted are of brass and interestingly the engine one is made in two pieces with the hex head silver soldered to the main drain plug - can't remember if it was me that did it!
Yours looks like a diecast job?
If not you could possibly modify it by turning the hex off and fitting a new piece in a similar manner?

Alan
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Bowie69
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby Bowie69 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:39 pm

File some new flats on the sump plug to a normal AF spanner :)

philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Fri May 03, 2019 9:06 am

Re the bolts - just run a die further down the original bolts and shorten to suit or put a spacer under the original bolt head.


gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Fri May 03, 2019 1:25 pm

Thanks Alan, Bowie and Phil,
I think I'll pop over to Moss and buy some new brass sump plugs as both of mine are alloy, the gearbox one was in a better state
(gearbox one on the left in both pics)
IMG_20190503_125733.jpg
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IMG_20190503_125826.jpg
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Sirrom918's link to NTGservices was very useful as they also list a complete sump-bolt set, including the two odd ones with slotted heads that fit from the top (as marked in the next photo)
slotted hex head bolts.jpg
slotted hex head bolts.jpg (752.6 KiB) Viewed 465 times
Filter fixing bolts - the 2 new ones are 3/8" UNF and the extracted ones are normal M10 (and not fine like the rest of the metric bolts).

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Fri May 03, 2019 1:29 pm

Interesting, your two slotted fixings under the oil filter, on mine I have studs fitted into the sump with washers and nuts on top?

Alan
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philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Fri May 03, 2019 5:18 pm

Even if you have to run a 10mm clearance drill through the bolt holes of the new filter head to accommodate the original bolts it will be worth while.

I believe Rob Thomas has fitted this conversion to his side valve MM and therefore he may be able to provide further advice and a appropriate oil filter type/number if needed.


gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Fri May 03, 2019 5:33 pm

Alan, I've taken photos of the other 2 side-valve engines I have (the spare was difficult to get at), but they all have the top bolts in (but not with slotted heads)
Low-light sump fitting.jpg
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High-light.jpg
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Spare side-valve.jpg
Spare side-valve.jpg (2.65 MiB) Viewed 453 times
There is a very thick gasket on the high-light engine (car is March 1951, but engine is a replacement with unknown date).
If you look closely at the middle picture, you wil see that the sump bolt, to the lft, protrudes all the way through the body casting - doesn't seem to be the case with the other two.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Fri May 03, 2019 5:47 pm

philthehill wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:18 pm
Even if you have to run a 10mm clearance drill through the bolt holes of the new filter head to accommodate the original bolts it will be worth while.

I believe Rob Thomas has fitted this conversion to his side valve MM and therefore he may be able to provide further advice and a appropriate oil filter type/number if needed.
Phil, I've dry fitted the old bolts in the new filter head and they go through with no snagging and there is just thread showing at the exit, so no need to find an M10 die. What is on the other side of the fitting location? Will I need to cut the bolts short (which then means I can't revert)?
I have found an eBay seller that has M10 x 100mm high tensile steel bolts (the originals look to be iron).

I have also been to Moss Europe (London branch) and bought the last 2 oil sump plugs (but they didn't have washers). These are brass and are the correct ones. There may be stock in other branches, but they are now out at London (part number 442-050, but not cheap)
IMG_20190503_164348.jpg
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IMG_20190503_164402.jpg
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Sirrom918 has given pointers to some other filters, but I haven't yet found data on dimensions.

George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

RobThomas
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby RobThomas » Fri May 03, 2019 6:06 pm

FWIW, I only bought the filter head without filter or bolts and just adapted what I had on the shelf. The thread on the filter is a standard 3/4 BSP (?) [Edit: UNF, perhaps?] so there are dozens of filters which fit. 1275 is ideal, I guess. I just measured up the max depth of filter and dropped into Halfrauds.

Halfords Oil Filter HOF250 Extra Info
79MM Width
72MM Outer Seal Diameter
62.5MM Inner Seal Diameter
Cardiff, UK

philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Fri May 03, 2019 11:05 pm

Put the original bolts back into the original filter head and measure the length of exposed thread.

Put packing/spacers under the original bolt heads so that when fitted to the new filter head the same length of thread is exposed.

The original bolts can then be reused with the original filter head if required.

I do like those new brass drain plugs.

Use a copper washer on the drain plug.


gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Sat May 04, 2019 1:41 am

Hello Phil,
Unfortunately, it would need too much packing to do this and it will look unsightly. I think it best if I spend some of my pension on a set of new bolts (10 high tensile M10 x 100mm steel bolts for £5.08 with free p&p).
I've just spent some of this money on buying some copper crush washers to fit those lovely new shiny drain plugs (I like them very much too - shame no-one will see them after they are fitted :( )
NTG Services charge £1.55 each (inc. VAT) + p&p, but I found a company that does non-ferrous fastenings where it works out at 90p each (for a pack of 10, including VAT)) and free p&p.
https://www.britishpipeclamps.co.uk/pro ... sh-washer/

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

RobThomas
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby RobThomas » Sat May 04, 2019 7:14 am

2 quick thoughts...

1. Araldite a small fridge magnet inside those engine sump plugs to catch metallic crud.

2. Polish those sump plugs! :D
Cardiff, UK

gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 pm

sirrom918 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:58 am
It's highly likely the drain plug of an MG T Type and MG Series Y will be from the same Morris Motors / Nuffield Organisation parts bin. Certainly worth checking for size if you happen to live near to NTG Motor Services Ltd in Ipswich or a Moss Europe branch in the UK - London, Bradford, Bristol and Manchester.

http://www.ntgservices.co.uk/contents/e ... -Sump.html

http://www.ntgservices.co.uk/contents/e ... arbox.html
Unfortunately, having talked to the chap at NTG services, their version of the sump plug and washer is the smaller one (like Moos Europe show with e ruler next to it). The internal diameter of the copper washer is 20mm and we need 30mm for the side-valve engine plugs.
Incidentally, the gearbox filler plug is the same as the engine sump and gearbox drain plugs!
I have replaced the gearbox drain plug with one of my shiny new brass ones but, when attempting to do the same on the engine sump, the plug did not want to go all the way in (using fingers) and felt very rough in the threads,
Engine sump drain hole.jpg
Engine sump drain hole.jpg (794.81 KiB) Viewed 389 times
As the sump and the gearbox lower half are made from alloy, I did not want to force a new brass plug, so I fitted the original gearbox one to the sump (this wasn't too mangled).
IMG_20190512_172605.jpg
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Incidentally, the gearbox filler plug is identical to the drain plugs.
The copper washers I bought from another source turned out to be about 1.5mm too small on the ID - don't know how I managed to measure the plug incorrectly! So I had to fir "rubber" ones from my washer kit (bought at Lidl I believe).

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

sirrom918
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby sirrom918 » Tue May 14, 2019 1:02 pm

The Morris Motors / BMC Series MM Minor Service Parts List suggests the following:
These are Morris Motors part numbers.

Sump Drain Plug part number: X31479 - Washer p/n: 6K432

Gearbox Drain Plug part number: X31479 - Washer p/n: 6K432

Gearbox Filler Plug with baffle part number: SA1340 - Washer p/n: 163422

So it would appear the Sump Drain Plug and Gearbox Drain Plug and Washers were originally the same.

gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:02 am

Yes, the gearbox filler plug looks identical, externally, but has a different internal profile - hence the different part number?
I had to get the car off the garden and onto the tarmac driveway to get it jacked up, so I had to refit the Purulator oil filter system (still haven't got the correct length M10 bolts nor the 110mm long spin-on filter to use the adapter).
To refit the original system I had to make a gasket.
hand cut gasket-1.jpg
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Difficult to see against the gasket material sheet, so here is another view
hand cut gasket-2.jpg
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I used a cork gasket sheet and got the hole layout by using a"print" technique. The only thing I could find in the house to do this was a thick Teriyaki sauce! Dipped the filter head in the spread out sauce and then stamped it on the cork sheet.
Having fitted the filter head and filter can back on the engine block, I now wonder if cork was the correct material to choose as it has compressed and deformed greatly - I did the bolts up to 10 ftlbs as there was no data in the BMC manual.
I may need to revisit this and fit another gasket material as the system still leaks, but not as much as it used to.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Thu May 16, 2019 7:50 am

Cork is the wrong material for this application ……..

What you need is gasket paper:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GASKET-PAPER ... 2ZJN1nHEAQ

To get the gasket shape - place the gasket paper on the filter head gasket face and with a ball pain hammer (using the ball end) gently tap on the edges and that will cut out the shape of the gasket.

Grease the gasket before fitting and that will keep the gasket supple which allows easy removal and reuse.



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