Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

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Napoleon Boot
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Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

I fitted new brake shoes and drums about a month ago, and over the last week a persistent squeak started coming from the back right wheel, only stopping when the brakes are lightly applied.
I had a look today, and was pleased to find everything as it should be, just a load of brake dust where the shoes have been wearing in. Cleaned out the dust and the squeak's gone.
However, when I looked at the nearside rear (which hadn't been noticeably squeaking), I found that there's a chunk taken out of the top shoe:
IMG_8252.jpg
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Is this something I should worry about? There was nothing inside the drum which could have come into contact with it and nothing except dust in the drum, so I'm guessing it was just a weak point in the brake lining. I've only been pootling around at about 30 mph and no extreme braking.

I'm getting ready to go in for MOT, and so I took the opportunity to tighten up the handbrake which has never been particularly strong. I greased the handbrake cables, and the linkages to the brakes look fine. I'd already adjusted the handbrake lever to 3 - 4 clicks, and found I was able to tighten the back brake adjusters by an extra click now that the shoes have bedded in.

I guess what I'm asking is - how strong should I expect the hand brake to be? I stopped on a hill in neutral, and the handbrake kept me stationary, but I can easily drive off with the handbrake on without noticing. The foot brake is really good and reliable now that I've replaced the cylinders, shoes and drums, Am I expecting too much of the handbrake?

Seb
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paul 300358
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by paul 300358 »

Did you slacken the handbrake cables right off prior to adjusting the rear shoes? If not you may find that the handbrake works fine but the shoes don't have enough travel to operate with the footbrake. IIRC the manual states that the handbrake cables should not be adjusted.
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

paul 300358 wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:19 pm Did you slacken the handbrake cables right off prior to adjusting the rear shoes? If not you may find that the handbrake works fine but the shoes don't have enough travel to operate with the footbrake. IIRC the manual states that the handbrake cables should not be adjusted.
Hi Paul,

Yep, when I installed the shoes I slackened the cables right off, and when I was adjusting the clickers yesterday I made sure the handbrake was off. I can't turn the hubs by hand with the handbrake on, but it just seems a little weak compared to modern cars. The footbrake travel is fine. I guess they'll tell me at the MOT but I'd like to avoid a retest if I can help it!

Seb
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geoberni
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by geoberni »

I wouldn't worry about it not being strong enough: parking brake efficiency is quite a low figure.
If a vehicle is unable to use a rolling road for whatever reason, one of the alternative ways of testing is to see if it holds on a 16% gradient.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspect ... tion-1-4-1

!6% slope is a 1 in 6, or 9 degree slope. So if you parked up on a decent hill, it shouldn't be a problem.

As to feeling a 'little weak' compared to a modern, a lot of moderns will drive off with the handbrake on if they don't have a warning chime. :lol:
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Napoleon Boot
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Thanks Geoberni, several steep hills near me so I'll find one steep enough and try parking on it!

Does the chunk that's missing from one of my shoes look worrying, or should I relax? It's only on the edge, I guess I could just keep an eye on it...

Seb
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geoberni
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by geoberni »

Napoleon Boot wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:23 pm
Does the chunk that's missing from one of my shoes look worrying, or should I relax? It's only on the edge, I guess I could just keep an eye on it...

Seb
Looks like a manufacturing defect.
I'd keep an eye on it by checking it in 500 miles or so just to make sure it's not lost any more, assuming you get no other indications in the meantime, like strange squeaks again.
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

geoberni wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:27 pm Looks like a manufacturing defect.
I'd keep an eye on it by checking it in 500 miles or so just to make sure it's not lost any more, assuming you get no other indications in the meantime, like strange squeaks again.
Thanks, I won't panic too much then!

Seb
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by geoberni »

Napoleon Boot wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:16 pm
Thanks, I won't panic too much then!

Seb
If you think about it, it's lost perhaps 2 or 3 % of the contact area of just 1 shoe and you've got 8 on the car, so something like less than 0.5% loss of contact surface... That puts it in perspective. :wink:
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Well, I drove to the steepest hill near me - Swain's Lane which cyclists use for training and which peaks at 19%. Pulled over, into neutral, handbrake on, released footbrake and...

weeeeee!!!!!! as we rolled backwards down the hill :roll:

So that's going to need sorting before the MOT. Footbrake is fine, really reliable, there's a servo fitted so no worries about stopping in a hurry. I'm not sure what to do as the cables and linkages are all in good condition and lubricated. If I click the shoe adjusters one more click, the wheels lock solid and I can't turn any more. The handbrake is adjusted so that it pulls up four clicks - there's not a lot of thread left on on the threaded rods though.

After scraping an unusually tall bump while fully loaded, the cabin has got a bit fumey so I think the exhaust will also need looking at, might be best to try and get a garage to look at both at the same time...

Seb
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paul 300358
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by paul 300358 »

Section M of the workshop manual states: The forward ends of the cables are provided with adjusting nuts which are locked by locking washers of the tab type. They should never be disturbed after initial fitting.
Section M.19 then explains what to adjust if the lever is reaching the end of its travel.
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Trickydicky »

As above, set it up as per the workshop/Haynes manual. Release the handbrake, adjust the shoes to lock the drums. Pull the handbrake up 3 notches and check the cables at the handbrake end are adjusted up correctly.
Release the handbrake adjust the shoes as per normal and retest.
Richard

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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Thanks both,
paul 300358 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:57 pm Section M of the workshop manual states: The forward ends of the cables are provided with adjusting nuts which are locked by locking washers of the tab type. They should never be disturbed after initial fitting.
Section M.19 then explains what to adjust if the lever is reaching the end of its travel.
I had read that in the manual, but I've read lots on here and the other place talking about using the handbrake adjusters, plus videos like this one which show it being done: https://youtu.be/O91aTqcvBJI?t=1985

As it's nearly fifty years since the initial fitting I'd assumed that this was one of the bits of the manual that we don't pay attention to any more!
Trickydicky wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:08 am As above, set it up as per the workshop/Haynes manual. Release the handbrake, adjust the shoes to lock the drums. Pull the handbrake up 3 notches and check the cables at the handbrake end are adjusted up correctly.
Release the handbrake adjust the shoes as per normal and retest.


So I should click the snail cam adjusters all the way up, then adjust the handbrake adjusters so that it comes up three notches, then release it and adjust the shoe adjusters as normal (all the way up, the back off one click)?

*EDIT*

I've re-read Section M19 and I think I get it now:

My cylinders, shoes and drums are new and correctly adjusted, so I'll jack up the rear wheels, apply the handbrake three notches, and then adjust the nuts until I can only just rotate the wheels. I'll adjust the nuts equally so that both brakes are equal. Then once I'm done, I should be able to pull the handbrake four notches and the car will be held on the handbrake.

Have I got this right?

Many thanks,
Seb



Seb
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by paul 300358 »

IIRC, the brake shoe adjusters are at one end of the shoes and the cylinder and handbrake leaver are at the other end. You need to completely remove the tension from the handbrake cables then adjust the brake shoes then take some of the slack out of the cable.

If there is any tension on the cables you will not be able to adjust the shoes correctly, also it will lift the shoes off the cylinders which have a finite amount of travel.
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

paul 300358 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:57 pm IIRC, the brake shoe adjusters are at one end of the shoes and the cylinder and handbrake leaver are at the other end. You need to completely remove the tension from the handbrake cables then adjust the brake shoes then take some of the slack out of the cable.

If there is any tension on the cables you will not be able to adjust the shoes correctly, also it will lift the shoes off the cylinders which have a finite amount of travel.
Thanks Paul,

I did totally slacken the handbrake cables when I fitted new shoes, cylinders and drums last month (and gave the cables a wiggle to check they weren't seized at all). The brakes are properly adjusted and the lines are bled, it's just the handbrake which isn't tight enough. Will follow the instructions in Section M19. and report back, fingers crossed.
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

I adjusted the handbrake as per the manual a while ago, and all has been well since. I noticed that the locking nuts on the handbrake lever tend to gradually undo themselves, so I’ve nipped them up and put a drop of loctite on the threads.

What hasn’t improved is the squeaking from the rear o/s brake. It only starts after about thirty mins driving, and then I get that classic squeaking noise as I apply the brake (at any speed). Five minutes or so after this, it starts squeaking all the time, only dying a little when I lightly press the brake.

I’ve taken the drum off and cleaned out the dust three times. Most recently I did it right after a short drive, and the drum was hot, almost too hot to hold.

There’s no sign of rubbing in one particular area, in fact everything looks as I’d expect.
It seems to me (I could be wrong) that the shoes are rubbing and as they expand with heat they start to squeal. My solution would be to back off the adjuster one more click, but everything I’ve read says to turn it until the wheel won’t move, then click back one. Would one more click be safe?

Seb
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by philthehill »

Click back as far as required until the brakes are free and do not rub or make contact with the drum when the brake pedal is not depressed. You are not making it unsafe.
The hot brake drum proves the point that the brakes are over tightened.
If the brakes are over tightened it does not allow the cylinder piston to have sufficient travel to keep it free which results in a sticking and possibly long term seized cylinder which is unsafe.

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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Thank you Phil, that reassured me! It doesn’t feel like it’s rubbing when I turn the drum by hand but it must be if it’s getting hot. I’ll do that now.

Best wishes,
Seb
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by shoebone »

Suppliers sell brake shoes and also Mintex brake shoes, I don't know what you got but I found an improvement with Mintex shoes, also, if your drums have been skimmed it may take longer for your shoes to bed in .. I cant quite make out a wear pattern in your picture but if your shoes are more likely to be touching at the ends then its an idea to put a small chamfer on them which can also help reduce squeeling.
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

shoebone wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:02 pm Suppliers sell brake shoes and also Mintex brake shoes, I don't know what you got but I found an improvement with Mintex shoes, also, if your drums have been skimmed it may take longer for your shoes to bed in .. I cant quite make out a wear pattern in your picture but if your shoes are more likely to be touching at the ends then its an idea to put a small chamfer on them which can also help reduce squeeling.
These are new Mintex shoes, and new brake drums as well. It’s only the driver’s side that’s causing a problem. I’ll try chamfering the leading edge though it feels like it’s rubbing further back.
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I’ve got the wheel off at the moment- it takes four clicks back before there’s no sign of rubbing, but then the handbrake needs tightening a ridiculous amount to compensate. Might try it with three clicks back, it feels like it’s rubbing slightly on the top shoe but I can’t see where. Here’s a new photo:
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Just to add to the annoyance, there appears to be a tinkling from the prop shaft as I turn the axle- like a marble inside it, halfway towards the gearbox. All the bolts appear to be present. Agh!
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Re: Squeaky brakes and handbrakes

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Well, I took the car in to the local MOT station, the good news is that the brakes passed with flying colours! No squeaks on the way there either. It's a good feeling knowing that all the jobs I've done on the car pass muster.

The bad news is that there is a small patch of rust and a little hole on the n/s front chassis leg which they failed it on. Luckily they recommended a friendly garage up the road who can TIG weld it for a reasonable price tomorrow morning.

The only advisories were that the ns front wheel bearing sounds a bit rough - he said that a bit of grease might sort that. It was replaced not that long ago so I don't think it should be worn out yet. The other thing was the exhaust - the previous owner added a wider bore exhaust and it's quite noisy. The old guy running the place said that if it was up to him, he'd fail me on the noise as it's much louder than a stock Moggie exhaust. I guess I could get a standard exhaust fitted, but would that be at the expense of power? I have few enough horses as it is!

Seb
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