Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

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philthehill
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby philthehill » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:42 pm

For my 1380cc comp engine I have fitted an oil/coolant intercooler. As the seals for the MG Metro intercooler are no longer available I am using a Peugeot oil/coolant intercooler which is similar to the MG Metro item and for which parts are still available.
The oil intercooler is better in some ways to the straight oil cooler in that when the engine is cold the oil warms up quicker and when the engine is hot heat is transferred to the coolant and dispersed through the radiator.
Minor intercooler 1.JPG
Minor intercooler 1.JPG (1.39 MiB) Viewed 395 times
Coolant comes from the heater outlet on the rear of the head to the intercooler and then returns to the radiator to be cooled.


oliver90owner
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby oliver90owner » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:19 pm

These days, I would expect a good fully synthetic oil to cope with this duty?

kevin s
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby kevin s » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:36 pm

I'd be suprised if with a decent oil they need it, they have a pretty large radiator and many far more powerfull vehicles seem to manage without.

philthehill
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby philthehill » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:07 am

The MG 1275cc Metro (non turbo) was fitted with the oil/water intercooler as it was found that the engine and oil ran hot without the intercooler. Good oil does help but there is an optimum temp for max efficiency of oil. If the oil temp can be kept to the optimum so much the better.


jagnut66
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby jagnut66 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:20 pm

As a postscript to my earlier posts in this topic I have now fitted and oil cooler thermostat to both my cars, Elsie May having been run up to temp and left running successfully with no leaks.
It actually turns out to be a very simple job, one that I'm sure anyone with the inclination (and an oil cooler fitted, like me previously, without one inline) could easily complete.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Oil cooler thermostat in place.JPG
Oil cooler thermostat in place.JPG (1.31 MiB) Viewed 318 times
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- on axle stands needing more welding......
1955 Series 2: Traveller: "Elsie May" -- on the road and enjoying her 'as is' for now but I see work ahead......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- driven back from Llangollen in Wales

philthehill
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby philthehill » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:13 pm

Well done.
I hope that oil pipe is not anywhere near that lever arm castellated nut. :wink:
Phil


jagnut66
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby jagnut66 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:23 pm

I hope that oil pipe is not anywhere near that lever arm castellated nut. :wink:
Point noted Phil, however I haven't secured it in place yet, as I'm still pondering exactly how I want to do this....
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- on axle stands needing more welding......
1955 Series 2: Traveller: "Elsie May" -- on the road and enjoying her 'as is' for now but I see work ahead......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- driven back from Llangollen in Wales

philthehill
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby philthehill » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:55 pm

A couple of 'P' clips with a rubber inserts.
One on the inlet pipe from the engine and one on the outlet pipe to the oil cooler. Both near the oil thermostat which will then be kept nicely in place.
These are what I have been using:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322547600814 ... %3A2334524
To keep the pipes apart but with free runs the 'P' clips can be used back to back with a bolt through the mount hole


jagnut66
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby jagnut66 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:11 pm

What size did you use? Thanks.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- on axle stands needing more welding......
1955 Series 2: Traveller: "Elsie May" -- on the road and enjoying her 'as is' for now but I see work ahead......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- driven back from Llangollen in Wales

philthehill
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby philthehill » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:49 pm

20mm.


jagnut66
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby jagnut66 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:49 pm

Thanks Phil,
Bargain at £3.40 for a pack of 10.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- on axle stands needing more welding......
1955 Series 2: Traveller: "Elsie May" -- on the road and enjoying her 'as is' for now but I see work ahead......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- driven back from Llangollen in Wales

ndevans
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby ndevans » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:11 am

Head gasket failure timeline. Starting from the bottom:-

Composite gasket, fitted July 2016, lasted ~5000 miles, failed between 2 & 3 cyls Sept 2018.

Copper gasket, fitted July 2019, lasted ~1800 miles, failed between 3 & 4 cyls Nov 2020

Copper gasket, fitted Dec 2020, lasted ~1600 miles, failed between 2 & 3 cyls June 2021.

2nd photo shows the reverse, in the same order.
IMG_20210610_222111847_HDR~2.jpg
IMG_20210610_222111847_HDR~2.jpg (3.41 MiB) Viewed 223 times
IMG_20210610_222140042_HDR~2.jpg
IMG_20210610_222140042_HDR~2.jpg (2.83 MiB) Viewed 223 times
cheers N
'69 Traveller, 1275, discs.

philthehill
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby philthehill » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 am

Thanks for posting the photos of the failed head gaskets.
My conclusion is that you have got problems with the top of the block and/or the face of the cylinder head.
To overcome this repeat head gasket failure I recommend that you have the top of the block and cylinder head face skimmed.


ndevans
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby ndevans » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:07 am

philthehill wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 am
Thanks for posting the photos of the failed head gaskets.
My conclusion is that you have got problems with the top of the block and/or the face of the cylinder head.
To overcome this repeat head gasket failure I recommend that you have the top of the block and cylinder head face skimmed.
I was afraid you'd say that....... :(
cheers N
'69 Traveller, 1275, discs.

oliver90owner
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby oliver90owner » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:22 am

As per PTH, really. Except that I would be carefully checking for flatness - particularly of the deck - before actually having expensive (if not required) machining carried out.

But as I posted earlier, there can be other contributing factors. It would be good to know if the head actually needs/needed skimming.

les
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby les » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:46 am

My thoughts are that after the first failure, the metal burn between 2 and 3 cylinder either on head or block, maybe both, would progressively get worse, resulting in a string of gasket breakages. If it was flat at the trouble point they could not blow. You wouldn’t get that many faulty gaskets that could be blamed.

ndevans
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby ndevans » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:32 pm

No, that's my thoughts, Les. I might put one down to faulty manufacture, or poor quality, but 3, each from different suppliers...... No, there's a deeper problem somewheres.
cheers N
'69 Traveller, 1275, discs.

Sleeper
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby Sleeper » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:47 pm

Torque wrench calibration?

John ;-)

ndevans
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby ndevans » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:00 pm

I thought a couple of photos of the top of the block might be in order.
IMG_20210611_205255774_HDR~2.jpg
IMG_20210611_205255774_HDR~2.jpg (1.4 MiB) Viewed 131 times
IMG_20210611_205306923_HDR~2.jpg
IMG_20210611_205306923_HDR~2.jpg (1022.72 KiB) Viewed 131 times
There are clearly defined rings around the bores, this I assume is where the gasket sits. There is quite a lot of oil on there surface of the block-some, at least, drained out of the head when I lifted it off, but I can't discount that some had leaked or somehow found it's way into the join between the block & gasket.
cheers N
'69 Traveller, 1275, discs.

ndevans
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Re: Head gasket failure-3rd in 2½ years

Postby ndevans » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:06 pm

Sleeper wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:47 pm
Torque wrench calibration?

John ;-)
I can't rule that out. I have two, one is a simple bar and pointer type, that works through the deflection of the bar under load, this is about 7 years old. The other is a click type that is about 30 years old. I've been tending to use the deflection type, as there's less to go wrong with it-the older click type is now uncalibrated, and I'm less inclined to use it-i understand they can go out of calibration if left with the torque setting screw done up.
cheers N
'69 Traveller, 1275, discs.


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