Clutch judder in 1st

[iddy]

I posted this once, but it's disappeared somewhere

Had a great weekend. Went on the Pembrokeshire rally. Did 100 miles saturday, 90 miles Sunday and 100 miles Monday and she didn't miss a beat.
However, after about 25/30 miles the car has a severe judder in 1st gear when pulling off. But once underway there's no problem changing gear.
Ife I've stopped for a couple of hours the problem disappears for another 25/30 miles (or 30 minutes).
A chap in work say's it could be weak clutch springs. Any ideas?

Summary:
1. The clutch doesn't slip at all, not even going uphill in fourth.
2. Tested for oil contamination - engine hot with handbrake on. Engaged 4th gear, revved up and released clutch. The engine stalled immediately.
3. The problem only develops after 30 miles or half an hour or so.

Cheers,

Idris.

[bmcecosse]

Could still be some oil on the plate. Is the engine steady bar ok - rubber in good order and not cracked away from the bulkhead ? Also could be soft or broken engine mounts - doesn't really explain why ok when cold.

[brixtonmorris]

i think its a worn clutch, it may be running on the plate rivets.

[Pyoor_Kate]

It does sound like either broken engine mounts or a slightly oily clutch. Despite being hideously contaminated with oil, my clutch never slipped before it failed (including drivng around the lake district - and parking on the mountain which we were staying on).... but I did get a hideous judder.

Broken engine mounts often give you a nasty judder in reverse too.

I also had a spring which broke in such away that the leaves - when there was weight on them - rested together looking fine; but I got hideous judder in first and sometimes reverse. Took me a while to suss that one out.

[bmcecosse]

As above - and could be a prelude to the centre ripping out of the plate.

[brixtonmorris]

we need to consider the pressure plate springs. there are 3 of them. When a clutch plate is new, these springs are forced back, compressing them, giving max pressure on the drive plate. As the plate wears and gets thiner, the loading on the drive plate is reduced. The leavers compensate for this, by adjusting there position. This has the effect of reducing the loading on the drive plate as the springs are not compressed fully, as when the plate was new. the more the plate wears the less the applied force.
In first gear, the most load is put through the clutch, the morris has no momentum, and its expected to accelerate.
the fact that it only does it 30 miles into the drive has somthing to do with temperture, possible rivets warming up, and expanding slightly, changing something around there.
I have seen many clutches running on rivets, its not to much of a problem, as long as you change the full clutch. These rivets normaly cut into the pressure plate, and that would be replaced. have seen some cut into the flywheel, these are well by there sell by date.
So i think the chap at work is right.

[bmcecosse]

I think Kate and i are thinking of the little springs within the centre of the clutch plate. Wear on the linings has no effect on these- but with age and use the whole centre part becomes loose (and in my case broke off completely one day) and since they are there to absorb any initial shock on engaging the clutch - could well cause this judder.

[les]

Sometimes the gearbox steady wire has a bearing on judder, mostly in reverse, although (as discussed before) primarily for resraining the forward movement of engine, might be worth checking. For the centre of clutch plate to loosen or brake, would point to rough use.

[bmcecosse]

Err - well yes in my case - it had had some ahem 'rough' use !!

[brixtonmorris]

i am talking about the pressure plate springs, not clutch plate.
if you cant live with it its new clutch time.

[iddy]

Thanks for the replies guys ( Been off line for a week).
Will take the gearbox off when I get some spare time (when ).
Will have to ask your advice about that job when I do it

Cheers,

Idris

(note to self: must get picture taken with car. Have really enjoyed that thread).

[winger300]

Hi, dragging this one up again...

Did you replace the clutch, and did it solve the problem?

I have the same problem, when cold it is fine, but once everything heats up, it's juddering in first and reverse.

[MoggyTech]

Hi, dragging this one up again...

Did you replace the clutch, and did it solve the problem?

I have the same problem, when cold it is fine, but once everything heats up, it's juddering in first and reverse.

I have fitted two brand new clutches in four years, complete clutches not just the driven plate. All new engine/gearbox mounts and steady bar, and gearbox tie cable. Clutch judder stopped for 8,000 or so miles with each new clutch, oh and new spigot bush in the flywheel, plus new thrust release bearing.

I have no oil leaks into the bellhousing. The clutches are genuine Borge and Beck. My conclusion, is once the clutch material get's glazed, clutch judder returns. Prop shaft UJ's are fine, and all new poly suspension bushes.

It appears to be a combination of driven plate snatching, which translates into axle tramp. I have learned to live with it, and control the judder with clutch pedal control. A smear of copperslip grease on the face of the carbon thrust bearing also seems to help a bit.

So if the drivetrain and suspension/gearbox and engine mounts are all ok, it's the clutch. However, there is every chance a new clutch will only last for 8,000 miles before the judder returns.

BMC fought the clutch judder problem for years, and I don't think they ever really cured it.

I went as far as measuring flywheel run-out, new clutch pressure plate parallel of surface tests.

Oh and make sure you adjust the freeplay at the clutch pedal, and ensure there is no clutch drag with the pedal on the floor, or the clutch will overheat PDQ.

Don't think I forgot anything, except maybe 'learn to live with it'

[bmcecosse]

My clutch is yonks old - and doesn't judder at all. Smooth as silk forwards and reverse. Try burning it in a bit - some good fast starts giving the clutch some work to do - because that's pretty much what my car gets all the time !

[MoggyTech]

My clutch is yonks old - and doesn't judder at all. Smooth as silk forwards and reverse. Try burning it in a bit - some good fast starts giving the clutch some work to do - because that's pretty much what my car gets all the time !

If in doubt flog it, I like it, I'll pop into an empty carpark and do a few doughnuts

[RogerRust]

My traveller had exactly the same symptoms Judder in 1st and reverse when warm

Turned out to be the gearbox rubber mounts.

You can see how worn they are if your crawl under the car at the back of the gearbox where the steady cable is there should be about 10 -12 mm clearance between the cross member and the nut on the bottom of the g/box any less and the mountings need replacing.

Roger.

[dalebrignall]

can a standard moggie do doughnuts i have naver tryed, i have had the backend out when its wet going round rounabouts really alarms people,i think its funny because you are in compleate control.

[bmcecosse]

You are NOT in complete control unless you have a stiff limited slip diff or a welded up diff. Yes it will slide - but not under any real control. Doughnuts - same - need v good Limited slip diff.

[Rob_Jennings]

i used to have very bad judder in reverse and sometimes in first

eventually the gear box gave up and I had it reconditioned, put a new clutch in at the same time anyway but the funny thing is all the judders have gone? I guess it may have been slack building up in the box adding to the whole effect (especially in reverse where you have the most number of cogs in play)