Brake upgrade

[Romek]

I see this topic is a regular favourite, but I'm a bit confused - any advice appreciated.

In a nutmeg we would like to upgrade the brakes on the Traveller (the car is a bare shell, so this seems like the time to do it). Finances are stretched due to the restoration, so we're looking for the best/cheapest safe solution which I'll be able to fit myself.

Other threads suggest discs are the way to go, or discs with a servo. I was wondering if just a servo would be sufficient - I could add discs later if needed?

[bmcecosse]

Your 69 car should have 8" drums already - and if these are in good condition they are perfectly adequate for any sane road use. A servo doesn't make brakes any better - it just drops the leg force required - but the 8" drums should not be heavy anyway! Remember - these cars were sold to 'little old ladies' in the day - and they managed just fine. If you are planning Alpine motoring - then yes perhaps discs are for you. Not an inexpensive upgrade unless you can find a good secondhand set at the right price. My own car has the 9" front drums from a Wolseley 1500 - has very low pedal force - and has never been known to fade - but I don't do Alps...... Overall I suggest you put the existing brakes into top condition - and see how it goes.

[MarkyB]

Do you plan to keep the engine standard?
How much of the braking system you have needs replacing?
I would say keep them standard but get a named brand of brake shoes, I'm underwhelmed by no-name ones.

[Romek]

Thanks. The brakes are good, but there's no denying the pedal force required is high by modern standards - is that just my car? Ideally I want the missus to feel confident with the brakes and less pedal force should help.

Everything else is standard. It is going to be a daily runabout car (so no rally spec needed), which is why I thought just a servo. Ill put some new pads on and give them a good service anyway, but as everything is out, it seems like a good time. I'll certainly see if I can find some wolesey drums though (assuming there are any left in the world!)

[MarkyB]

That's the best reason to fit a servo, people who are used to modern brakes don't realise how much work the servo is doing for them.
Well worth pointing out that the skinny tyres are the limitation to Minor stopping, it will be quite easy to lock up in the wet if she stamps on them.

[bmcecosse]

Indeed - by far the greatest limitation stopping my Trav is the tyre/road adhesion! And as above - too light pedal will easily leading to locking up the wheels (especially on a wet road) no matter what brakes are fitted.

[moggalot]

If you are going to replace the whole system, my five pennyworth would involve the use of silicon (Dot5) brake fluid. This will almost guarantee that you will never have to replace another cylinder due to corrosion and/or leakage. My 4 door was rebuilt in such a way in 1987 and kept outside and has never needed a single new cylinder since! The brakes will probably feel a bit 'stodgy' at first but will bed in after a few hundred miles. (Might need to bleed it twice though as Dot 5 doesnt part with the air bubbles so easily as Dot 4.) As MarkyB says, might be a good idea to avoid the cheaper shoes. I personally can't see the benefit of upgrading the brakes on a standard car. A well maintained, properly adjusted standard system will be fine.

[blues2rock]

Have to support BMC on this one, my recent experience was having purchased a '67 model the drive home was a worry as there seemed to be very little retardation no matter how hard I pushed the pedal. On inspection everything appeared perfect: hydraulics fine and little wear on the linings. I did notice that the linings felt very hard and just didn't look right.

A full set of Mintex linings fitted and even before they were properly bedded-in car felt more than 100% better and now some 300 miles later (and one re-adjustment) I can easily lock the fronts from 30 mph on a good road surface in the dry.

There are some really rubbish brake parts out there which I'm sure have led to unfair criticism of the Minor's braking system.

On a technical note, the balance between front and rear braking force is very important to both ensure stability under braking and to ensure maximum retardation is achieved. If very powerful front brakes are fitted in isolation there will come a point where the rear brakes on a fully loaded car will be doing very little, so for a given retardation the fronts have to work harder, so if the surface is wet or slippery the fronts will lock 'early' before best retardation is achieved. ie the car actually takes longer to stop.

I'm sure someone will want to challenge me on that but trust me it is correct. I can't be bothered to 'prove' it with the relevant calculations, but as this subject was a big part of the last 12 years of my professional career I do know what I'm talking about; honest!

[bmcecosse]

You are absolutely right - we did have a lengthy 'discussion' on that subject a while back. And yes I am aware that on a wet road my fronts are braking more than the rears. I have a set of 8" rears ready to fit - when i get a chance. Of course - the car passes the MOT ok - because they check each axle in isolation, with no front/rear balance considered. Still my tyres are the weakest link -especially in the wet.

[Romek]

Thanks guys. New linings and shoes it is. The access is good enough to upgrade later, so lets see how it goes with a properly set up system. I did wonder what was involved in the DOT 5 switch. Can you just drain the old stuff and replace?

[bmcecosse]

DON'T DO IT!! That fluid can ONLY be put in a complete new system. NO modern car uses that fluid - avoid avoid....... Just bleed the brakes through annually to get rid of any contaminated fluid and all will be well.

[MarkyB]

Best to do it if you are replacing a fair bit of the system if only to be sure of getting rid of the old hydroscopic stuff.
There are horror stories of the mixture turning to a gel but I've never heard one first hand, it's always "a bloke in the pub told me" or a friend of a friend. Urban legend for my money.

I've used it for years with no problems and no concerns about cylinders getting rusted up and seized.

Modern cars have a complete brake fluid change as part of there service schedule, your choice really.

[liammonty]

While you're at it, make sure all the cylinders are working properly. It's not uncommon to have one on each side at the front stuck; the car will still pull up straight and could potentially get through the MoT, but the brakes would be hopeless. Genuine cylinders are only about £15 each, and they're simple to change.

[ben-me-123]

What everyone (or so) will say is true, better to have top-maintained stock brakes than anything else, good shoes and adjustment with standard hydraulics are more than enough, discs and servos are just unnecessary expense- the servo wont press the brakes harder than you if you 'man up' (just to coin the phrase, one could indeed also 'woman up') and press hard ;) and disks just make things a faff for no real stopping gain, brake fade is negligible- I had less brake fade driving the welsh mountains than my friend with a corsa, in fact, my minor was driving much better than his corsa- don't let the word drums scare you they're fantastic brakes, it's wrong to insult their engineering...

[ben-me-123]

also, good drums will make a difference.. I cleaned mine up when \i did a bit of brake work and it made a world of difference...

[bmcecosse]

Totally agree Ben......