not starting

[Stourbridge_moggy]

I took the starter out today. Connected it up on the bench and it ran, cleaned up earth etc and put it back. Still nothing when back in the car. I also tested it in the car by connected it directly up to the battery whilst in the car. Then went around all the earths and took readings and theyre all strong.

I am totally confused. Its currently charging on the small chance the battery isn't strong enough still.

I think it might be time to call in the experts

[bmcecosse]

Did nothing at all happen when you connected it directly to the battery 'in the car', What did you use to connect it - nothing less than a jump lead will do.....

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Did nothing at all happen when you connected it directly to the battery 'in the car', What did you use to connect it - nothing less than a jump lead will do.....

no nothing even with jump leads

[simmitc]

I've noticed a couple of things... first, when I turn on the ignition the fuel pump constantly ticks. And then I pull the starter the oil light dims and the petrol gauge moved back to zero. And the coil is warm. Is this normal?

The petrol pump might tick initially if the float chamber was empty, but it should stop. If it doesn't, then (a) the float has failed/needle valve jammed open or (b) the pump is faulty or (c) there's no petrol coming from the tank. Any of these will prevent the engine starting.

The coil gets warm in normal use. You should not leave the ignition switch on for long periods as the coil may overheat - normally it is constantly switched on and off by the points.

The lights dimming and petrol gauge falling back indicates that voltage drop is excessive, caused by (trying to) operating the starter.

When you tested the starter on the bench, did you use the battery from the car, or another 12v source?

[Stourbridge_moggy]

I've noticed a couple of things... first, when I turn on the ignition the fuel pump constantly ticks. And then I pull the starter the oil light dims and the petrol gauge moved back to zero. And the coil is warm. Is this normal?

The petrol pump might tick initially if the float chamber was empty, but it should stop. If it doesn't, then (a) the float has failed/needle valve jammed open or (b) the pump is faulty or (c) there's no petrol coming from the tank. Any of these will prevent the engine starting.

The coil gets warm in normal use. You should not leave the ignition switch on for long periods as the coil may overheat - normally it is constantly switched on and off by the points.

The lights dimming and petrol gauge falling back indicates that voltage drop is excessive, caused by (trying to) operating the starter.

When you tested the starter on the bench, did you use the battery from the car, or another 12v source?

Thanks for that! I used the same battery. Now I'm wondering if the problem lies in the petrol pump as one minute the gauge was half next time i turned ignition its back to zero

[simmitc]

The pump should not affect the gauge. I've come to this thread a little late, so forgive me if I'm duplicating anything from earlier, but it seems as though there are several issues, but the basic is that the engine will not start. So...

Take the fuel pipe off the carburettor and place it in a container suitable for petrol. Take extreme care, no sparks, no smoking, fire, etc during this test! Turn the ignition on. Does petrol flow into the container? Put your thumb over the end of the pipe. Does the pump stop ticking?

Reassemble the pipe and return any petrol to the tank, make sure that it is safe to proceed.

I think that you have already established that the battery will turn the starter on the bench, but not in the car, so there must be an electrical problem there - is the battery in good condition? Could a post be loose? Check that the connections are clean and tight.

Take the HT lead off the centre terminal of the dizzy and wedge it close to the block. With the ignition on, turn the engine over - if the starter will not work, then take the plugs out and spin the motor with the handle. Do you get a spark between the lead and the block?

Last question for now: With all plugs out, push your thumb firmly over each plug hole in turn, and spin the engine. Do you get good compression on all cylinders?

[Stourbridge_moggy]

The pump should not affect the gauge. I've come to this thread a little late, so forgive me if I'm duplicating anything from earlier, but it seems as though there are several issues, but the basic is that the engine will not start. So...

Take the fuel pipe off the carburettor and place it in a container suitable for petrol. Take extreme care, no sparks, no smoking, fire, etc during this test! Turn the ignition on. Does petrol flow into the container? Put your thumb over the end of the pipe. Does the pump stop ticking?

Reassemble the pipe and return any petrol to the tank, make sure that it is safe to proceed.

I think that you have already established that the battery will turn the starter on the bench, but not in the car, so there must be an electrical problem there - is the battery in good condition? Could a post be loose? Check that the connections are clean and tight.

Take the HT lead off the centre terminal of the dizzy and wedge it close to the block. With the ignition on, turn the engine over - if the starter will not work, then take the plugs out and spin the motor with the handle. Do you get a spark between the lead and the block?

Last question for now: With all plugs out, push your thumb firmly over each plug hole in turn, and spin the engine. Do you get good compression on all cylinders?

Thanks, all I can answer at the moment is that yes the starter runs on the bench. The battery is new and I'm pretty sure the connections are tight. I've pretty much worked my way around the car improving the connections.

I'll try the rest tomorrow, although I've had no luck with the handle either.

EDIT: Just thought. My coil as three wires attached without including the cable to the dizzy. Is that right? I thought there was only two (according to the wiring diagram)

[bmcecosse]

If the starter won't turn when you use a screwdriver across the pull-start switch - then it IS faulty. Did you inspect the brushes and commutator when it was out? Remove and check it again. When it ran on the bench - did it kick like a mule and spin like crazy - or did it just gently motor over? Forget all the petrol/ignition checks - this was a running engine and by fiddling with other things you are only going to add other problems. Concentrate on getting the starter running!!!!

[chesney]

To rule out poor earths, try a jumper cable from the earth terminal to the engine block (the front plate is a good place to try).
If not already suggested, you could try a jumper cable also from the starter terminal to the battery positive terminal (non earth) and seeing whether the starter turns the engine.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

To rule out poor earths, try a jumper cable from the earth terminal to the engine block (the front plate is a good place to try).
If not already suggested, you could try a jumper cable also from the starter terminal to the battery positive terminal (non earth) and seeing whether the starter turns the engine.

Thanks. I did this yesterday but no movement in the engine.

Remove and check it again. When it ran on the bench - did it kick

Will do. It didn't kick as such. more between a kick and slow rotate. Will remove and give it another go. Thanks

[bmcecosse]

There's the problem.....you should need to hold it hard on the ground with your foot, and it must spin very fast.... And of course the connection must be made with decent jump leads - not with a bit of old lighting cable.....

[Stourbridge_moggy]

I've just cleaned up the starter a bit more. Put it back (perhaps I should have tested it out of the car) started up and got a splutter which is more than I've got the last week, but then second attempt I got nothing. I'm putting this down to low battery for now so it's on charge. I'll try again later.

EDIT: Just been back out. Now I have movement from the starter when I pull the starter switch. But thats it. The fan doesn't turn. Stupid question but is the motor supposed to turn anti clockwise?

[bmcecosse]

Yes the starter motor turns anti-clock, to turn the petrol engine clockwise.... Are all the brushes in good condition/free to move and the commutator bright and copper coloured ?

[Stourbridge_moggy]

yes, I replaced the brushed and it now spins well. I keep getting a splutter but not a full ignition. I'm still getting the ticking petrol pump, although not as frequent.

[moggalot]

Sorry, but I have been separated from the internet for a couple of days, but we still don't seem to have moved on very far on this one. We don't appear to have ruled out a jamming starter pinion. If there is a deafening silence coupled with a voltage drop (ie cause of dimming lights and fuel gauge returning to zero) This could be the cause? The starter motor would work fine out of the car, but if the starter ring gear on the flywheel is really mangled, then a 50% success rate would be reasonable. Next time you have the starter out of the car, try to have a look at the ring gear (ie the bit of the engine that the starter actually turns.) A mirror might be helpful.

[bmcecosse]

It's now spinning correctly and cranking the engine... So now back to the non-starting problem after the battery/starter motor diversion.... What state are the plugs in - and is it possible the HT leads have been disturbed in all this palaver?

[simmitc]

A splutter suggests that the timing is wrong. With an A-series engine acting like this it's going to be either fuel or ignition. Fuel is easy to rule out - go back to my earlier post and check that everything is working - it's worth doing those basics just to rule out other things.

If you have fuel, a spark from the coil lead, and compression, then it's likely to be timing. Check the position of the rotor arm when No 1 is at TDC on compression. Check and set the points gap and then the ignition timing. Good luck, it will start when everything comes together.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

It's now spinning correctly and cranking the engine... So now back to the non-starting problem after the battery/starter motor diversion.... What state are the plugs in - and is it possible the HT leads have been disturbed in all this palaver?

The start is still spinning fine but it doesn't seem to be cranking the engine now.

If you have fuel, a spark from the coil lead, and compression, then it's likely to be timing. Check the position of the rotor arm when No 1 is at TDC on compression. Check and set the points gap and then the ignition timing. Good luck, it will start when everything comes together.

I've checked the coil lead and I get a spark. And the compression is good on all plugs. I don't think it can be the HT leads but I will double check. Currently I have the order 2431 (with 2 being top on dizzy and with 1 being the furthers back plug)

Thanks for the continued help!!

[bmcecosse]

Well the starter is no good if it doesn't crank the engine ! Is the bendix drive clean/not cracked or sticking? It must throw the drive pinion back into the flywheel ring to crank the engine..... How can it splutter if it's not cranking ???

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Im wondering if the crank that rotates when the starter rotates is missing each other? It spins well in car but doesnt turn anything. (Sorry for lack of parts knowledge)