Brakes failed

[Offshore]

Hi guys

Attending my first branch rally on Sunday my brakes more or less failed.
Pedal travel is long almost to the floor with some light braking from then but nothing to shout about.

Brakes were described as lazy by Wares in August and "rebuilt" with new seals etc. Not sure what they did as not checked the paperwork since but the car went from need in 3 weeks notice to stop to locking all wheels in an emergency. New front shoes fitted by Wares and I've done over 1500 miles since. Brakes got progressively worse over last week.

Brakes do not pump up at all and I cannot tell yet if there has been any leakage. Not looked at the car yet as been busy turning 50 on Monday and getting depression!

Might get chance tonight but where do I start first? Check for oil capacity? adjust shoes or buy a new master cylinder?

[liammonty]

Glad to hear that you survived the loss of brakes without major mishap... Don't be depressed about turning 50 - celebrate it, as at least you still will be despite your Minor's efforts!!

Sounds as though a seal (in either a wheel cylinder or the master cylinder) has failed, and you are quite right to check for fluid level in the m/c first. Check for evidence of leakage. If the m/c has been leaking a reasonable amount, you may well find brake fluid escaping from the drain hole in the offside chassis leg. Leaky wheel cylinders should be easily identified once you've whipped the drums off. I wouldn't buy any parts until you've established the source of the problem, as you may end up having to return them if you buy the wrong bits.

Regarding adjustment, this shouldn't cause a sudden deterioration in braking, but longer pedal travel over a period of time, so although this may be part of the problem, I doubt it's the main cause.

Good luck!

[bmcecosse]

Probably just need adjusting - but check fluid first.

[dalebrignall]

you have done a lot of miles without adjusting them , the shoes wear into the drums once that happens you need to tighten them up, once you do you will notice a big difference . i tend to readjust 100 miles after fitting new shoes . you need to do this on a regular basis .

[mike.perry]

If Charles Ware did the repairs to the brakes then take the car back there. It is their responsibility to do the job properly. If it is a safety related problem such as the brakes then they should not release the car until the brakes have been repaired and thouroughly tested.
I realize that this could be a problem for you as I remember your address is Isle of Man, not an oil rig as I suggested

[morris van]

My brakes were not fantastic on my van but pulled up. The near side hand brake cable snapped a couple of weeks ago and I got the mechanic who has done the MOT and a few jobs on it to fit a pair of new cables and adjust the brakes and the brakes have been so good.

[Offshore]

Hi chaps. Just started looking at the brakes. Checked the master cylinder first. Two issues - first the filler nut was loose not even finger tight and second the cylinder was very low on hydraulic fluid.

What do I do next? What grade of fluid do I top up with and do I need to bleed the system. No idea what fluid was put in by Wares in July assuming they did so.

Where do I start looking for leaks? Are there any favourite or obvious places. Wares said they had stripped out through brakes as they were "lazy" and rebuilt. Certainly the increase in braking power was tremendous. Until two weeks ago could lock the wheels.

Look forward to your sage advice as usual.

Cheers
Charles

[ianmack]

Easiest way to check what fluid has been used is to check the repair invoice. If it was silicon it will be stated and an extra cost. Otherwise you can assume that it will be a regular dot4 spec fluid, it doesn't matter what brand as this is a common spec and they can be mixed.

The Check procedure for leaks is to start at the master cylinder and follow the pipes to the wheels looking for damp patches. Any of the unions could develop a leak, but a burst pipe is not likely as then you would lose all pressure.

In your first post you said you had long pedal travel but the pedal was firm when the brakes went on. This suggests that your brakes need adjusting rather than bleeding. My guess is that your new shoes have bedded in to the drum so just need adjusting.

[bmcecosse]

I seem to remember you were warned about your choice of Servicing 'Garage' - perhaps you now understand .... You really need to take the drums off urgently to check for any leaks. Maybe they just need adjusting - but you do need to check.

[ianmack]

I agree about removing the drums. As well as checking for leaks the new shoes bedding in will have produced dust which should be cleaned out.

[kennatt]

you will need to take the drums off but if you have lost a lot of fluid,as you say,just have a look at the inside of the wheels and drums you may see where the fluid has run out of the drum,it MAY be simple adjustment,but don't just fill it up and use the car until it has been checked you may get total brake failure.

[simmitc]

If all shoes were new, and the drums were a little worn, and it wasn't adjusted properly originally, and the shoes have bedded in, and the M/C top was loose, then it it's possible that the fluid level is low simply due use - particularly if the system was not bled properly or topped up when the work was done. Definitely drums off, check for leaks, refit and then adjust all brakes, top up with fresh fluid and bleed all brakes, topping up again as necessary. When everything else has been confirmed as OK, then as a last resort, there is an adjustment on the pedal yoke/operating rod, but it is very rare for that to need attention. it really is a "fit and forget" item.

The fact that the cap was loose suggests that they job was never finished when the car was handed back - they were going to top it up and tighten the cap, but just forgot to do it. It's really not acceptable to hand a car back and say that they brakes are lazy!

[Offshore]

Hi guys. Thank you for your advices so far. Today was my first chance to have a look. Topped up master cylinder with DOT4 as no mention of type used by garage. Pumped the brakes a few times. Some improvement but looking under the car after was a large pool of fluid roughly under the master cylinder and fluid dripping off nuts in the area.

Where do I start? Specialist claims to have rebuilt the brakes as they were lazy. Certainly had significant improvement at the time.

Secondly I adjusted the front shoes but if I back off one click the drum grates or is stiff on both wheels to one degree or another. I therefore took it back another. Would this be correct? Bear in mind I ain't driving the car obviously but the hubs both spin freely.

Regards and look forward to any help.

[liammonty]

As I said a while back, it was unlikely due to adjustment as the brakes became poor so quickly. It would seem that the master cylinder has either failed, the pipe work into it is leaking. If the brake overhaul included work to, or replacement of the master cylinder, then you need to get Wares to sort it out. If they didn't do that though, and it was ok at the time, as seems likely, then you'll just have to replace it yourself. No garage would replace the
Master cylinder unless it was obviously kaput, even as part of a brake 'overhaul' as it's an expensive job and they would be accused of ripping people off due to unecessary work. The onus is on you to find out whether they replaced the cylinder. If you end p having to do it yourself, they're not desperately expensive, but are a bit of a nuisance to change. Good that you've found the problem.

[bmcecosse]

So you assume Wares wouldn't rip people for unnecessary work....?? It likely IS adjustment - the drums should be left lightly grazing - the shoes will soon wear off the rough edges and square themselves, BUT - the oil dripping below the master either means you spilled (or overfilled) it while filling - or there is a leak - which is obviously very serious. So - did they fit a new master - or put new seals in ?? You need to find a decent garage locally to have a good look at it if you can't do yourself.

[panky]

The grinding you hear could also be caused by brake dust, you really need to take the drums off and give everything a good squirt with brake cleaner before adjusting. I always find giving the drum a sharp tap with a blunt instrument after adjusting lines the shoes up and can stop the dragging you encountered.

[liammonty]

So you assume Wares wouldn't rip people for unnecessary work....?? It likely IS adjustment - the drums should be left lightly grazing - the shoes will soon wear off the rough edges and square themselves, BUT - the oil dripping below the master either means you spilled (or overfilled) it while filling - or there is a leak - which is obviously very serious. So - did they fit a new master - or put new seals in ?? You need to find a decent garage locally to have a good look at it if you can't do yourself.

Actually, I assume nothing The point is simply that if they recently replaced the cylinder, it
Would be worth contacting them; if they didn't and it was ok at the time, then of course it isn't worth contacting them. In addition, a master cylinder low on fluid, failed brakes, and fluid pouring out of the chassis leg after topping up actually IS likely to be a failed cylinder unless I'm missing something very obvious. Poorly adjusted brakes would not be likely to cause sudden failure. The OP has adjusted them now, so that can be ruled out.

Offshore - did they have to be adjusted quite a bit, or just a few clicks?

[bmcecosse]

Trouble is -Wares are not exactly handy for this 'offshore' owner.

[Offshore]

Hi guys. Thanks for the replies. Going back to Wares is not an option until at least February so it's diy. I have now got to know the leader of our branch here a man with a mere 9 (nine) Morris Minors so will see him about a repairs.

Thanks for the tips on the brake adjustment. I need to redo both as I tightened to stop probably 2 clicks. Nearside backing off one click left it stiff in one place hence two clicks. Offside just grated slightly. I take the point about removing the drums and will attend to this but will a stiffly rotating drum in one area be OK and settle in and is there a procedure? Rest of the rotation has the odd graze.

With regard to tapping the drum as suggested by Panky is this to the sides of the drum or front or both?

One thing I want to check and haven't looked at is the master cylinder drain plug - in case it's missing or wasn't put back on right. Is the plug accessible from under the car with the cylinder in place or just when off. Finding 3 wheels with wheel nuts finger tight yesterday is leading me to tighten everything.

Cheers

[liammonty]

Fraid it doesn't have a drain plug. To see the cylinder, you'll need to take off the cover around the filler plug on the floor - you'll need a very large cross head screwdriver to get the brass screws holding it in place. Once you've got that off, you'll be able to see it sitting in the chassis leg and should be able to suss out what's going on. You can't see it at all from underneath by the way, unless your chassis leg has rotted away

If the brake adjusters went up just 2'clicks, that isn't your problem, though of course they need adjusting right. The rubbing you describe sounds normal to me.