choosing a cam

[les]

There's no half measures for you Phil, excellent!

[julie4morris]

Well after having a mess around slowly turning the cam by hand a playing with the verniers all the measurements seem to be pretty dam close to your ones Phil, so i'm going with standard Marina/Ital camshaft.
After doing this it has made me realize that after multiplying in the rocker ratio value, the valves don't open as much as i first imagined.
I also tried to look and order a MD266 cam today but am having a hell of a time trying to find a star/spider drive one.

[bmcecosse]

You probably wont -but you need a new oil pump anyway! So just get a spade drive cam and pump to match.....

[philthehill]

Les
I tried doing it holding the cam and calliper and could not get a satisfactory reading so did it this way.
Albert
If you can only get a slot drive it is of no matter as you can just change the oil pump to suit. Most of the cams supplied other than possibly re-ground these days are supplied with slot drive.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... lassic/oil pump.aspx|Back to search
[frame][/frame]

[julie4morris]

Did the Marina or Ital's have fuel pumps that ran off the cam? I only ask as it looks like there is wear on the elliptical part of the cam that i'm assuming drives the pump and FYI there was not one on this engine when it cam to me.

Oh how come i need a new pump anyway?

Nice set up Phil Admittedly i don't find the reading i got satisfactory but don't have any V blocks to hand.

My name it Albert by the way, i set up the account in mum's name when i first got my Morris and insured it but i cant see a way to change the user name.

[bmcecosse]

You ALWAYS fit a new pump in an engine rebuild - false economy not to... If you are 'following' AC Dodd - you will see he strips and re-tolerances new pumps before fitting them - to get the very best oil flow from them.

[julie4morris]

learn something new every day. I added him on face book but he never added me.

[philthehill]

Albert
I included the link to the Mini Spares oil pump for two reasons-
Firstly so you could read the notes in the link regarding changing the oil pump and secondly so that if you wanted to fit the MD266 camshaft the slot drive oil pump is not that expensive.
I agree with bmc above in that for peace of mind and longevity of the engine you should always change the oil pump whenever you re-build the engine. The same reasoning is also given in the Mini spare link above.
The oil pump is the beating heart of the engine.
If you do purchase a new oil pump buy one where the rotor is keyed onto the drive shaft and not just pressed on.
With the pressed on rotor without key there is always the possibility of the rotor slipping on the drive shaft and the engine loosing oil pressure.
The Marina/Ital used a mechanical pump and that is why you have scuff marks on the fuel pump lobe. The camshaft I measured has exactly the same scuff markings.
Not only has the Mini Metro Turbo oil pump fitted to my Minor engine been tolerance selected but the ports have been modified for better flow. Whilst the turbo oil pump has lots of capacity it does not make the oil pressure better because the upper limit of oil pressure is set by the oil pressure relief valve spring.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... .aspx|Back to
Phil

[philthehill]

Albert
Looking closely at your photo of the camshaft on its end I notice in the background the timing chain and sprockets which appears to be a Morris Minor single link (simplex without 'A' Plus tensioner) set up in that the cam sprocket has the grooves for the two rubber tensioning rings.
The two front main cap/front engine plate set screws are not countersunk into the front engine plate confirming that a duplex system has not been fitted.
In the timing chain cover is the Marina/Ital 'A' Plus chain tensioner so whoever fitted the camshaft chain used and ended up with a hybrid camshaft drive.
Below is a picture of what a Marina simplex timing chain and tensioner set up should be. Note difference in cam sprockets.
There is no problem with the set up as is but check the teeth of the sprockets for wear especially if they came off a well used Minor engine.
I would advise against fitting a new chain to worn teeth but would suggest fitting a duplex chain set up and continue to use the Marina/Ital tensioner to alleviate any slack in the chain. The tensioner should only be set firmly but not too tight against the chain.
Phil[frame][/frame]
I suspect that the set up as is was used as the timing cover you have with timing sensor bracket fitted requires the dimple underneath the timing bracket to be removed if fitting a duplex set up.
Below is a picture of a cover with the timing sensor bracket and dimple removed.[frame][/frame]

[julie4morris]

Sorry Phil i was in the middle of wring up my post when you posted up the link, but i will do for the turbo oil pump. oh yes i see what you mean about the sprockets and reading your comments on a different post i will go for a Vernier Duplex Timing Gear and Chain Set.

I was also wondering what dash pot springs and needle i need as i have a 44 turbo carb i'm rebuilding to put on this engine.[frame][/frame]

[philthehill]

Albert
Unless you have the timing disk and the two dial gauges (with holders) which are required to set the cam timing to the manufactures initial specification I would advise against purchasing a 'Vernier Timing Gear kit'.
A standard duplex set up from ESM as per the link below is more than satisfactory even when set dot to dot.
http://morrisminorspares.co.uk/shop/pro ... 911b52e756
You only need a vernier kit when you are trying to maximise the power - the vernier kit allows you to advance or retard the valve timing to obtain the best power output.
As an aside - I personally do not like using offset keys as the cross section of the woodruff key is reduced the more the offset is introduced.
The Turbo oil pump is a very good pump and you will have made a good choice in fitting it.

I have to admit that I am not sure what needle you will require as I am more used to the old H type SU & Weber Carbs but no doubt someone one her will give you the info.
Now you have posted a picture of the rear of the engine I see that what appears to be a MG Midget crankshaft has been fitted (6 bolts and two studs/dowels (one dowel is missing)) and which is a better crankshaft than that fitted to the Marina/Ital. (The marina/Ital crankshaft has 6 bolts and one dowel to fix and locate the flywheel) If you have the Midget crankshaft fitted it follows that you have Midget con-rods fitted as the big end journals of the Marina/Ital are bigger to compensate for the lower grade material of the marina/Ital crankshaft.
To make doubly sure of the crankshaft the MG Midget has a raised and tapered register on it outer edge as per the photos attached. Take no notice of the bearing in the rear of the crankshaft as that is a modification to allow fitment of a special gearbox
It appears someone has put together a bit of a hybrid!!
Phil[frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

[julie4morris]

I have a timing disk from my granddad and my father can get a hold of 2 gauges (digital or analog i think). have done some research as to how to time the cam, but will take my time to check and recheck just to make sure. Yes i very much see and agree with your point about offset keys now that i too think about it, last thing you want is one of them shearing off as high rpm.
Well i was hoping i could fit a turbo pump as i would like to for fill every teenage boys dream and possibly fit a metro turbo at some point.
Oh right perfect then, just goes to show a man's experience and knowledge spotting that out.

[bmcecosse]

The Turbo SU is no use - it's designed as a 'blow through' carb - for use with the turbo obviously. It may be that it can be modified to work - but better to start off with the correct carb in the first place I think. The BDL is the normal 'starting point' for a lightly modified 1275 engine - you will then need to decide if it's the best for you by road testing and perhaps on a rolling road, along with fine tuning the dizzy advance curve. Again - AC Dodd is the man for this with a great reputation for getting the very best from an engine with his specially profiled needles and dizzy curves. I agree a 'vernier' kit is a waste of money for your lightly modified engine - and indeed I think the turbo oil pump is also a big overkill except on highly stressed engines. You will simply be dumping excess oil over the relief valve all the time - absorbing power and heating the oil! However - the low price of the other pump mentioned on the website also worries me - the 'best' standard pump is reputed to be the 'steel backed' pump - and I suggest this is the one for you. http://www.kentautodevelopments.com/sho ... slot-drive

[julie4morris]

is there much difference between the carbs?

[philthehill]

Albert
A couple of indications as to what crankshaft is fitted.
Looking at the photos below of the Marina/Ital 1275cc crankshaft end on there is only one dowel.

Looking from above you will see that the flywheel flange/register is parallel.

These are the con-rods fitted to the Marina/Ital note the large overhang at either end of the bearing cap.

[frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

[philthehill]

As regards the oil pump - the link I gave above to the Mini Spare pump refers to a steel backed pump.
It should be remembered that all BMC/BL oil pumps migrated towards the capacity and flow of the turbo pump.
Originally there was the vane bladed production pump and the concentric Cooper S pump. BMC decided to standardise on the concentric with Cooper S capacity and flow and thereafter all pumps were the same capacity and flow as the Cooper S only the drive changed. Latterly the alloy body of the pump was revised to allow the fitment of a steel back - but it still had the same capacity and flow as the Cooper S.
Notwithstanding bmc's comment above and those in the link below I would still fit the turbo oil pump and the stronger Cooper S oil pressure relief spring Pt No: AEA536 and or replace the oil pressure relief valve plunger (Pt No: 12H865) with the ball bearing (Pt No: BLS916 BALL) which must be used in conjunction with spring Pt No: AEA536.
I have used all types of oil pump and pressure relief valves over many years but I have never experienced any problems with oil pressure / flow or oil temperature even when my Minor was previously used on the road with a modified engine using a Cooper S oil pump and relief spring. My 1380cc engine has a Turbo oil pump and it works well with good oil pressure at all times.
The Kent Cams oil pump is similar to the Mini Spare item but it is a case of you pays your money and takes your chance.
Here is a link to a very good article on oil pumps so that you can make up your own minds :-

http://www.minispares.com/article/Techn ... -oil-pumps

Phil

[bmcecosse]

At one time the pumps had 3 lobes - then 4 - and then finally all settled on 5. The Mini lads are pretty unanimous about using a steel back pump. I don't see what advantage the Turbo pump has for the extra cost ? I used the ball bearing on comp engines - but just the standard bullet on modified road engines. There is no need to boost the relief valve pressure with the 'S' spring. If the engine is in good condition it will run at 70 psi anyway - which is more than enough.

[julie4morris]

Ok so just for you Phil i have got some more pictures of the crank to help with identification.[frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]
I have also clean up the head up which has shown up quite a bit of a pitting between cylinder number 2 and 3, so it will need to be skimmed. I'm also considering having it ported and or bigger valves fitted as at the moment they are 33mm and 29mm Also some of the guides are not make the desired suction popping noise when removing the valves with a finger over the other end of the guides so some of them need replacing i'm thinking.[frame][/frame]

I would also like to say thanks for the help so far as is very much appreciated

[philthehill]

Thank you for the pictures especially of the rear of the crankshaft.

The crankshaft appears to be a 1275cc Marina/Ital with Marina/Ital flywheel mounting flange i.e. 1 dowel and 6 bolts. The flywheel mounting flange has had an extra hole drilled in it, possibly to fit the extra dowel but upon finding that the dowels are not available currently decided to tap the hole and use a fitted bolt in lieu of the dowel.
The connecting rods are 1275cc Marina/Ital.

Could you please post pictures of both sides of the flywheel?

[bmcecosse]

You may be better to just look for a 'big valve' head - rather than pay to have that one modified.