Head gasket issue?

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

Hello all

I have a 1966 2 door Minor 1000 saloon. She is losing oil like there is no tomorrow and there is the appearance of creamy deposits in the fuel tank also the engine is very growly on acceleration. My husband is convinced the head gasket has blown but he is a GP rather more used to dealing with human ailments as oppose to a mechanic and his knowledge of the ailments of car's is virtually nil, that said so is mine!! So he looked up the symptoms in a Morris minor handbook and that is what he has come up with.

Are the symptoms I am describing screaming blown Head Gasket to anyone in the know?

Many thanks

Maddie.

[ianmack]

This does sound like head gasket symptoms, although the creamy stuff is usually under the oil filler cap, is that what you meant? You might also get an oily sheen in the radiator coolant.

The best check is a compression test, if you put your location there might be a local member with a tester who can do it for you.

[oliver90owner]

Maddie, I think you may have mixed up the fuel tank and the oil sump. Or the radiator header tank?(edit)

Creamy oil is a bad sign as lubrication is compromised. The common cause is a leaky head gasket, but there are other causes, such as cracked cylinders, heads, or porous blocks.

Whichever it is, it needs urgent attention if there is sufficient water to send the engine oil creamy.

Condensation in the rocker cover (on the top of the cylinder head, covering the valves and actuators) can be due to the engine running too cool, particularlh a worn engine or one with poor crankcase ventilation.

In an emergency, the oil might be changed and try running with the radiator pressure cap loosened, but that is really only recommended as a 'get -you-home' ploy by those that are aware of the possible consequences.

RAB

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

Hello ianmack and oliver90owner!

Thank you so much for replying to me and apologies for my late reply. Yes I am sorry I DID mean the oil sump! And I also meant she is USING oil like there is no tomorrow and when parked a good deal is being deposited on the tarpaulin on our drive. I forgot to say that we are having to constantly fill her up with water and oil after fairly long journey's. I am not sure about an oily sheen in the radiator coolant I will check that tomorrow.

Ian a compressor check would be a good start wouldn't it, my location is Crick a small village on the outskirts of Chepstow South Wales.

Hopefully someone will contact us who can do this. I will keep you posted.

Many thanks to you both once again your knowledge and advice is greatly appreciated.

Maddie.

[oliver90owner]

I think it is beyond the compression test stage. It will tell you nothing apart from which pot might have a leak.

Bubbling in the radiator, while running, would indicates gases leaking to the radiator. If water is getting to the sump via a cylinder it will be obvious as soon as the head is removed. Not so much a 'blown' head gasket as a leaking one, hopefully. Water under pressure leaking to the push rod apertures. If it is leakiing (under pressure after the engine is stopped) into a cylinder, there is a risk of hydraulic lock which can be really bad news.

Do not continue to run it with milky or creamy oil. Bearing damage is likely to ensue. Fix it or get it fixed as soon as possible is my advice.

RAB

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

Ok RAB got that. We will check what you have said about bubbling water etc.

The car is one of 3 so she is in a secure lock up at the moment we intend to book her in to our local garage this week, they deal with vintage cars. I just wanted to check whether it was as serious as we thought or if there could be other causes and so far we have had very helpful advice.

Many thanks

Maddie.

[ianmack]

In view of your comment on extreme loss of both oil and water I agree with Rab that the head should be removed and the car not used to avoid possible damage. If your garage is familiar with cars like this it should take 2-3 hours to change a head gasket so not a vast bill, assuming all else is well.

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

Hello ianmack

Thank you for your comments. We have booked the car in at a local garage that has a large collection of classic cars they have worked on our cars before and we have been very happy with them.

I will update on here again once we they have had a look at her.

Maddie

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

Hello again! here is an update.

The head gasket has given up the ghost and we have been quoted £379 plus VAT from our local garage anyone know if this is reasonable?

Also the leaking oil issue has been pinpointed to the camshaft, apparently according to the man at the garage there isn't a seal as such that can be replaced it's a mechanism on my particular model, 1966 saloon, whereby any excess oil gets forced back into the sump via pressure from the engine and if the pressure is to much then you get the leakage of oil that we are seeing. I think I've got that right. This incorrect pressure can I am told can be indicative of a worn engine, coupled with blue smoke from the exhaust and a definite grumbling sound when accelerating and driving at speed 90 mph to be precise (ha ha!) no actually around 50-60, I am wondering whether the engine is damaged. This could be the case due to my husband having to carry on driving it once for quite a distance without water when the hose split on a long dual carriage way, I was following behind and blue smoke started to appear from the exhaust, only when steam started to appear from the bonnet did he realise there was a problem. I am wondering if this is when it may have over heated and suffered damage. The garage has suggested a total re-build of the engine, but this hasn't been costed yet. I am wondering whether to try to source a new engine from somewhere, as this may be cheaper in the long run. I do have a good friend who knows his stuff when it comes to Morris Minors who may be able to get me one that I would certainly trust if it was from him.

I would be interested to know your thoughts on what I have said.

Many thanks

Maddie.

[myoldjalopy]

£379 plus VAT sounds very steep to me. If the engine overheated, the head might be a bit warped and will need skimming. Unlikely that the block is damaged. I would ask the garage how they have estimated that price. What is their hourly rate? Are they planning to decoke, grind in valves etc. or just replace the gasket (after checking the head for warping, hopefully)?
Get a breakdown of what they propose and come back here for further advice. It may be that your local MMOC branch can provide/recommend somewhere more reasonable

[ManyMinors]

I would say that the estimate you've received is high. Also that replacing the head gasket is unlikely to cure all your problems - such as the oil leak and the grumbling sound - which is probably worn crankshaft and bearings. I think you are getting the camshaft and the crankshaft muddled up .
If it was my car I wouldn't bother spending that money simply to have the head gasket replaced (an fairly easy job) if there is general wear in the engine anyway.
Yes, overheating the engine won't have helped although how much of your present trouble is due to this is hard to know of course....
If the car is in good general condition, I would consider a complete engine overhaul or replacement engine to be more satisfactory than simply replacing the head gasket which is unlikely to fix very much in my opinion and seems to have been costed on the high side from what we have been told.

[philthehill]

You need to have a written estimate which breaks down into all the various stages of the job.

Whilst I agree that £379 is at the top end of the charging scale for doing the job - though when you take into consideration:-

Labour (ask what the hourly rate is for the garage workshop as various work processes are charged differently)
Parts (will be charged at normal retail prices not budget)
Materials (will be charged at normal retail prices not budget)

The charge is not exceedingly excessive.

If you want good workmanship you have to pay for it.

It has to be remembered that most garages charge £60 plus / hour.

The dreaded VAT is the killer at 20% on top of the £379.

If the garage wants your work they will be only too happy to oblige with the details.

[kennatt]

irrespective of the charge,don't think it will solve your problem,yes it will cure the water loss,but it sounds like the engine now needs a full rebuild ,and that will cost much more than the head quote. My advice,don't get the head done,look for a known good s/hand unit and pay the garage to fit. 2 to 3 hours at most. Good luck

[oliver90owner]

The engine problem has escalated somewhat since the initial postings! I am in agreement with kennat. The potential damage to the engine due to overheating and lubrication deficiencies may well mean a full rebuild.

The crankcase pressure (and subsequent oil leakage) may well be associated with gunge in the crankcase ventilation system, but could also be due (at least in part) to excessive blow-by.

Cannot tell until the engine is stripped and measured for wear (visual checking may well suffice in this case). Rebuilding by a garage at excessive hourly rates should be a non-starter. An exchange reconditioned engine would have been the 'norm' in the day, but not so easy these days!

RAB

[firedrake1942]

A reconditioned engine from one of the reliable suppliers i.e. A series, CW etc range from £800- £1500 - A series have a 15% sale at present and their engines are really good, as new.

If the car is is in decent enough condition I would go for this option. It might seem expensive but you could spend this and more having bits and pieces done by a garage and really be no further on.

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

Hello All

Well thank you so much! I had hoped for a couple of replies but so many have you have taken the time and trouble to send me quite comprehensive messages containing excellent advice. I'm very grateful to you all.

I think that on balance I may purchase a new engine. This will rid the car of all of the current problems. The car has been fully restored and looks fantastic, I may as well go the whole hog and replace the engine now.

Thanks firedrake1942 I will look at A series.

I will let you know the outcome shortly.

Maddie.

[firedrake1942]

Have a look at Bull motif - not normally my favourite but their prices are comparable with CW and once exchange costs are considered there are several options - presumably dependent on what has been done / what is included.

https://shop.aseriesspares.co.uk/shop/e ... a30a35a40/

http://www.morrisminorspares.net/shop.php (Bull motif)

http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... le-p830216 (ESM)

http://www.morrisminorspareparts.co.uk/ ... ne/engines.

Goodluck and let us know how it goes.

[mad-4-moggywhite-1]

I will do that firedrake.

Thank you for sending the links.

I've had a quote to fit a new engine of £400 this is assuming worse case scenario that it could be a 1 days work that's with VAT.
I thought that was steep myself.

Obviously I will get a few more.

[firedrake1942]

Does seem a little steep but if you think about connecting all the ancillaries starter, carb, manifold, dynamo / alternator as well as clutch . sundresses such as oil, antifreeze etc ....

[dalebrignall]

if you have the money i would go a series spares , they do propper rebuilds , ive had some engine work done by them carnt recomend them enough