timing chain - tinkling

[dudload]

afternoon all,

Over the past few months my engine "tinkles" when idling - previously i thought it was pinking, but changing the dizzy timing doesn't get rid of it, even when the engine is clearly far too retarded.

In a moment of clarity I thought it could be the timing chain - how tricky a job is it to put new sprockets and chain in there (i reckon i can get the grille and radiator off fairly easily) and is it worth going duplex or just sticking to the regular setup?

[philthehill]

Replacing the timing chain is reasonably easy.
The hardest part is getting the starter dog undone but not impossible. Use search facility for various ways of undoing the starter dog.
Fit a duplex set up and forget.
If not already fitted replace the timing cover with the cover (Pt No: 12A1419) which uses the neoprene crankshaft seal.
If you do use the 12A1419 cover you will need the later oil thrower disc (Pt No: 12A1148).

[dudload]

thanks Phil - will buy the duplex kit today in that case. i take it i'll need to buy a countersink drill bit (as read the instructions for it online and asks for two holes to be countersunk in the front plate). Do you happen to know what size bit i'd need there?

[Declan_Burns]

The smallest size standard countersinking bit that will work is a 12.4mm. Next standard size up is a 16.5mm. That is what I would use as the diameter of the screw supplied with the kit measures 11.8mm.
Regards
Declan

[philthehill]

If you can obtain (or already have one) a 82 degree counter sink should be used as the UNF countersunk head is 82 degrees but if not available a 90 degree countersink will suffice.
These are what I use.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Robert-Charle ... 2555735574
Similar single items are available off 'e' bay.
I find that the single flute is best as there is less chance of countersink chatter.
The Allen key headed type is preferred as per the picture below - Loctite in place.
These are what I use at 3/4" length.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-4-UNF-SOCKE ... hash=item0

[dudload]

just as an update, I went out yesterday to prep the job by testing the bolts on all parts and it wasn't great! Thankfully the bumper came off ok, but all of the bolts on the bottom of the grille and the BA4 bolts on the inside of the wing are a rusted mess. I've sprayed with copious amounts of plusgas, but have ordered some replacement bolts in case it end up having to cut them or if their heads snap.

My main worry is that the BA nut at the very top of the wheelarch appear to have been covered by fibreglass for a repair on both sides (replacement wings are on my list of fixes) and im not sure i'll even be able to get to them. If this is the case, do you think i could remove the bottom two and somehow lever/snap the top stud??

Phil - thanks for the advice i bought some 82 degree countersinks, but could pickup some 4 fluted ones for £5 so i went for them (as i don't think i'll ever countersink again). hopefully i can put up with chatter for this one job! I take it i'll need to drill the plate in situ though and needs to mask everything up whilst doing so?

[philthehill]

You can countersink the front engine plate in situ but take extreme care so as not to allow any crud/metal to get into the engine - a powerful vacuum cleaner nozzle tip held by the countersinking will pull away and consume much of the swarf generated.
Keep the drill square to the plate when countersinking.
Loctite the screws in place.
Make sure you use the flat oil thrower plate which is marked 'F' = front.
You may need additional shims to get the sprockets in line.

[dudload]

thanks Phil. Will try and get round to the job this weekend - will my moggie (1966 trav) have the flat oil thrower or is that something i'll need to purchase?

also - how much oil tends to come out when removing the timing cover - enough to drip onto a newspaper or enough to fill an oil bowl?

[philthehill]

If your Minor has the neoprene lip seal in all probability it will have the flat oil thrower plate.
See item No: 7 in the attached link:-

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-mo ... 343fa.html

Minors from car No: H453031 & engine number:- L449772 have the neoprene seal fitted and are normally fitted with the flat oil thrower plate.

Very little oil will come out of the timing chain cover - not even a cupful.

[jagnut66]

all of the bolts on the bottom of the grille and the BA4 bolts on the inside of the wing are a rusted mess.

You are not alone in finding these a disaster in the making. The bolts along the bottom of the panel get all the weather, so unless the previous owner has been there before you and copper greased them you will have no chance. The studs into the 'hockeysticks' are another regular fail point, the small nuts rust in place and the stud destroys the thread in its mount.
Olwyn now sports new 'hockeysticks' studs and nuts. The studs are 'loctited' in place for strength and plenty of copper grease has been applied to both threads and nuts.
I could see where the story with my bottom bolts was going, so resigned, I just went along and snapped all the nuts off. New nuts, bolts and washers (well secondhand from my spares stash plus lashings of copper grease!! ) later and it all undoes quite smoothly.
I know, I've had cause to delve into her innards a couple of times since doing it...................
Best wishes,
Mike.

[Chipper]

Indeed. I fitted stainless steel bolts & nuts to my Traveller's front panel last time I had it off.

I'm currently fitting new big end & main bearings into it's original 1098cc engine which had covered just over 100,000 miles, and had to remove the timing cover. I noticed there was approx. half an inch of slack in the (simplex) timing chain! So, I shall probably replace it with a Duplex kit, since I need to replace the cogs anyway (they have rather sharp teeth, indicating advanced wear).

[Chipper]

Well, I got around to fitting the new timing chain yesterday. Decided to stick with the standard simplex setup, for ease of fitting. Glad to say, it all went on fairly easily, and the chain now only has approx. 0.25" slack.

The new kit contained an Indian-made 'Rolon' chain. Does anyone have any experience of how well they last? It appeared to be sturdy enough, the links being very slightly thicker than the old chain that came off.

[philthehill]

http://www.lgb.co.in/protrachaindrol_roller_chains.html

http://www.jp.com.au/Chain.html

There is plenty on the web regarding Rolon chains.

It appears that the Rolon simplex chain is more than adequate but personally I would have gone for the duplex set up - it requires very little extra work to incorporate into the engine mechanicals

I am always very wary of fitting new chain to old sprocket teeth as the new chain does not fit comfortably in the teeth of the old sprockets and is therefore subject to more stress/wear and the chain will wear at a much quicker rate.
For the slight extra cost and work involved you can have your cake and eat it.
Phil

[Chipper]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the links. Some say Rolon chains are OK, others reckon they wear quickly - we shall see...

I did fit new sprockets - the old ones, although not worn enough to be "hooked" as one workshop manual described it, the teeth were noticeably sharp, compared to the flatted off ones on the new cogs.

Also, I broke the back tensioner retaining part of the larger cog while levering it off, so it would never have run quite right again.

[dudload]

i finally got round to replacing the timing chain today - had huge problems getting the hockey sticks off as a previous owner has bodged a filler job in the wing meaning i couldn't get at the top bolts and had to drill through the bolts!

anyway - after finally getting in I found that the timing chain (i think) looks in quite good nick. I stopped due to failing light, but what are you opinions of the chain below? Leave for the moment?

[RobThomas]

Now that you've gone that far...

[edd_barker]

Concur, you've done all the hard work, a duplex kit is under £30, would be foolish to not fit and forget one! In my humble opinion

[amgrave]

That chain is a bit too slack for my liking, if it were mine I would change it. I fitted a duplex set myself a few months ago and it is quieter now and the engine runs a bit smoother too. With a bit of slack in the chain it can make the camshaft run a little out of tune, not much but enough to affect smooth running. Same as you I found previous owner had bodged the hockey bolts with unknown threads gunged into place. Bought a 2BA spanner then found the reason an AF spanner I already had would not fit was because the nuts were caked in underseal. Got it back together OK but I now have a tinny rattle from the front of the car at tick over

[Declan_Burns]

I recommend using brass 2BA wing nuts on the hockey sticks. Difficult to source here but easily made by drilling and re-tapping standard M4 brass wing nuts from the DIY.
Regards
Declan

[philthehill]

The chain and sprockets are worn out.
Whilst the teeth are not 'pointy' look at the root of the sprocket teeth and the drive side of the teeth are badly worn.
The chain should not have the droop that it has and which is not helped by the worn sprockets.
Putting a new single row chain on those sprockets will wear the chain out in no time and you will have to do it all over again.
My recommendation is to replace the simplex set up with its twin rubber tensioning rings with a duplex set up.