Ital to Minor 1000 box

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Martlin
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Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 pm

Please bear with me,I know there is a lot of posts regarding A+ 1275 engines to Minor gearbox,but need to be clear what is involved.
I am about to fit a Ital 1275 A+ engine to a Minor ribbed gearbox.Some years ago I did a similar thing,but that was an MG Midget engine to a type 9 box.
What I need to know is do I have to replace the bush that I have removed from the end of the Ital crank.If I had to replace this would it be the needle roller type,the same as I removed?
I intend to get a flywheel from ESM,does this need a bush as well or not as the case may be.
I have the modified backplate,and Morris 1098 front engine mounting,so I am not far off!
Oh,do I need to remove the extra fixing plate fitted to the base of the sump?
Many thanks in anticipation.
Martin.

irmscher
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby irmscher » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:33 am

Martin you would be far better fitting a type 9 box as a 1275 engine will have the standard Minor gearbox wrecked in a very short time :(

RobThomas
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby RobThomas » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:16 am

No flywheel bush required and the bottom plate can stay or be cut off. It doesn't interfere but can be used to hang a rag to catch the drips. :D

Can't remember what sized bush is needed. Phil will be along in a minute...
Cardiff, UK

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philthehill
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby philthehill » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:02 pm

http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... ge-p830100

You may have to make the bush that fits into the centre of the modified flywheel to suit your application. The bush does not appear to be available from ESM or at least I cannot find it listed.

There are various threads on here re the modified flywheel bush - use the search facility.

Here are some pointers:-

search.php?keywords=Marina+flywheel+bus ... mit=Search

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67651&p=616481&hili ... sh#p616481


Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:24 pm

Many thanks all for your replies,but being an elderly I am more confused than ever!
I have trawled through all the posts relevant to my original query.
1098 gearbox to 1275 Morris Ital A+.
Not mentioning any names I read a post where a member re-drilled a 1098 flywheel,no mention of any bush fitted within the flywheel as is when a type 9 gearbox is fitted.
O.K here we go,can I just re-drill the 1098 flywheel without any further modification?
I do have the equipment to do this accurately.
I have removed the roller bearing from the end of the Ital crankshaft (don’t ask!)
Will the new roller bearing fit the gearbox spigot or will the Minor PSB fit.
Sorry to go on!

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philthehill
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby philthehill » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:26 am

See my comments in the third link and the measurements of the Marina/Ital & Minor first motion shaft bush posted by Midget and the measurements are different so you may well need a special bush to suit. See also photo posted by Midget of the Marina/Ital and Minor first motion shafts.
I am afraid that once you move away from standard it is a case of suck it and see and utilising your fitting skills - not everything just bolts together.
All I can suggest is that you try the Marina/Ital first motion shaft roller bearing over the Minor first motion shaft and see if there is any difference to the internal diameters. Also measure the distance from the rear engine plate to the rear face of the bush on both Marina/Ital and Minor crankshafts to ensure that the Minor gearbox first motion shaft has sufficient support in the rear of the crankshaft when the Minor gearbox is coupled to the Marina/Ital engine.

The rear face of the first motion shaft bearing in the rear of the Minor crankshaft is 14mm from the rear face of the block.


Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:25 pm

O.K nearly there!
Thanks for all replies and have taken on board all comments.
Just two questions left,
What is the internal diameter of an Ital roller crankshaft bush,I now know that the first motion shaft nose is 498” for the 1098 Minor.
How far does the first motion shaft of the 1098 gearbox protrude from the gearbox mating face,I am asking as I have not yet removed my old engine.
Looks like the original Ital crank roller bearing is now redundant,and bus is now mounted in modified flywheel,is this so?

Thanks for being so patient! :oops:

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philthehill
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby philthehill » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:33 am

Provided you have the ESM modified flywheel and bush carrier you now have all the information to move forward.

You have the dia of the Minor first motion shaft where it mounts into the bush.

You will have the internal dis of the bush carrier.

I have given you the distance that the rear face of the bush is from the engine block.

The 1098cc first motion shaft is longer to take account of the thicker rear engine plate but the bush in the rear of the crankshaft remains the same relative to the engine block

The bush is required to be at least 11mm in length.

As you will not be using the Marina/Ital first motion shaft the I.D. of the bush is not required.

Through the links you have photos of the bush carrier and how it is assembled.

You should be able to manufacture or obtain a bush from the above information.

The bush carrier should be a tight fit into the rear of the crankshaft and flywheel. LOCTITE the carrier into place for additional security.

Whilst the instructions in the link below apply to fitting the type 9 gearbox - the fitment of the first motion shaft bush carrier is the same so you can extrapolate what is required.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/frontline-deve ... -speed.pdf


Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:54 pm

Ah,this is where I was confused,I thought the bush carrier fitted in the modified flywheel,as with the type 9 gearbox,but had not realised the bush carrier fitted in the rear of the Ital crankshaft.
Have I got it at last? :(

Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:35 pm

Just one last question before everyone looses their patience with me!
I need to know the distance between the 1098 ribbed gearbox mating face and the end of the first motion shaft.
Many thanks in anticipation,blimey that’s a big word! :oops:

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philthehill
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby philthehill » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:10 pm

All you need to know is that the rear face of first motion shaft bush is 14mm from the rear face of the block.

It makes no difference as to whether you use a smooth or ribbed gearbox as the difference in thickness between the thin (803cc/948cc) rear engine plate and the thick (1098cc/1275cc) plate is compensated by the longer ribbed 1098cc/1275cc gearbox first motion shaft. You should always use a thick rear engine plate when using a ribbed gearbox otherwise the first motion shaft can bottom out in the rear of the crankshaft.
You should always use a thin rear engine plate when using a 803cc/948cc smooth case gearbox to ensure that the first motion shaft bearing surface is correctly placed within the bush.

Here is a useful link:-

http://www.gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tec ... arings.htm


Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:05 pm

That’s Great,many thanks Phil. :wink:

Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 pm

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Ahhh! I am now in possession of modified flywheel and engine backplate.
Without a gearbox at the moment, I have been told that the first motion shaft protrudes 1/4” beyond the gearbox mating face.Doing a bit of basic maths and
Using my vernier caliper I can see that the first motion shaft nose goes through the flywheel centre and would locate in the original Ital crank roller bearing.
My question is,do I need the bush carrier fitted in the flywheel centre.
This is to fit a 1098 ribbed gearbox.
On a previous project where I fitted a type 9 gearbox this centre bush carrier was used.
Thanks again for looking.
Martin. :oops:

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philthehill
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby philthehill » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:45 pm

A secondary purpose of the centre adapter/bush carrier is to help centre the flywheel on the rear of the flywheel - so yes I would fit the adapter/bush carrier. Loctite the adapter/bush carrier into the rear of the Marina crankshaft.

You must check the internal diameter of the Marina needle roller first motion shaft bearing. Place the shank of a 1/2" drill into the spigot bearing and see what the fit is like.

The outside diameter of the Marina first motion shaft bush/needle roller is 0.755". The outside diameter of the Minor first motion shaft is 0.625" so a Minor first motion shaft spigot bush is too small for a Marina crankshaft.

For information - The part No: of the solid oilite Marina spigot bush is 13H4653.

See the links I posted above.

Has the oil pump cover in the past been rubbed by the flywheel?


Martlin
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Re: Ital to Minor 1000 box

Postby Martlin » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:44 pm

Hi Phil,
I do appreciate all your comments,yes the engine is An Ital not Marina,
I have ordered a Ital needle roller bearing from Bull Motive who have assured me that it will fit,and say the first motion shaft passes through the bush carrier and locates in the needle roller bearing,we will see when the time comes!
Yes the oil pump cover was damaged,and what you can see is a repair I carried out.


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