Faulty fuel pump? Options??

[Blumpygrumf]

Got this Morris Minor running today, new coil, electronic ignition distributor, leads and plugs sorted it nicely and it seems to be running very smoothly, which bodes well. On the flip side, it's possible the fuel pump has packed up as there was no fuel supply at all, resorted to using a remote fuel tank just to get it running.

What's the best option regarding this suspect pump, fitting a new pump or repairing the existing one with one of the repair kits available?

[geoberni]

Well, looking back through your 5 posts so far, you've not exactly told us anything about the car or yourself, so it kind of makes things a little difficult.
But we'll assume it's an electrical pump as that's the usual thing, so I certainly wouldn't go rushing off to get a replacement.
First off find out if you've actually got a supply to it. I'm assuming the car has lain dormant for some years, so it could easily just be dirty points inside.

See this topic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61460

[Blumpygrumf]

I'm not sure what you want to know about myself Geoberni (and I don't see what bearing it has really), but here we go anyway. I'm a fairly competent mechanic though most of my experience is on old motorcycles, but that's not a problem as in many areas there's a lot of similarities between bikes and cars especially when it comes to the engine and electrics (I do a lot of paid mechanical work, so I must know what I'm doing).

As for the car itself, it's been standing for many years, stored in the dry, it's generally in quite good condition from what I've seen so far. The car is not mine but I've been asked to work on it. It's a Morris Minor 1000, first registered 1960, mileage is just over 37,000 miles at present (nothing further known of it's history as it's a barn find). Beneath the bonnet seems fairly tidy in most ways, rust seems to be mainly surface rust, and there's nothing I've spotted so far that gives me immediate cause for concern. I haven't looked at this car in detail as I was simply asked to see if it runs. Now that's been achieved it's a viable project so I'll have a real good inspection of everything sometime soon and report back to you. There's nothing beneath the bonnet that looks like it's aftermarket parts, everything looks genuine/old/original other than one electrical lead that's clearly "home made". The car's been resprayed but not in the original (colour), the hood is a replacement item though the framework looks original, all the interior looks original other than a radio/cassette and speakers that had been fitted (now removed).

To sum up, virtually everything I've seen of this car looks original!

The problem with the fuel pump is a total lack of operation. All wires have been checked for breaks, all seems fine. That's as far as I've got investigating this problem as it was getting late in the day at that point, the light was starting to fade so I thought I'd leave it till another day. The fuel pump that's fitted appears to have had some tinkering done at some point as one end is wrapped up with insulating tape, that's as much as I can tell you till I get back to it, probably in the next couple of days.

[simmitc]

It looks like a stabdard SU fuel pump. They all had tape wrapped round the end cap, sometimes plain black, sometimes blue, sometimes with white or yellow SU branding. The route of the copper pipe is unusual - normally a swan neck rather than a loop, but it shouldn;t be a problem.

It's quite likely that the diaphragm has become solid and/or the points are dirty and sticking. I would start by blowing an airline down the copper pipe to ensure that there are no oibstructions and draining and flushiong the tank. Check that your have 12v on the supply to the end of the pump. Strip, clean and reassemble the pump (consult the workshop manual for full details) and you'll ptobably find that it works.

The repair kits usually fix the pump, but it's a question of cost of parts vs cost of time - easy to take a new pump out of the box and fit it, but think of the planet and repair where possible. Personal choice.

[geoberni]

Hi
The purpose of saying (asking)

you've not exactly told us anything about the car or yourself, so it kind of makes things a little difficult.

is that it can greatly improve the relevance of the answers.

Your question here for example:

What's the best option regarding this suspect pump, fitting a new pump or repairing the existing one with one of the repair kits available?

The possible answers depend on if you have any idea of how the pump works, and have some understanding of 12 v electrics.
People can be reluctant to answer because depending on your knowledge and experience your response can be
a) outrage that the response is so simplistic you think it treats you like an idiot,
b) is just the level of detail you were looking for or
c) was so technical that you are totally confused, think everyone here is an elitist minor geek and go off in a huff, never to be seen again.

Now we know you've got some experience it focuses the responses a bit better.
The photos help a little too. Those rear lights and front side lights are 1963 onwards, so some upgrading has been done if the 1960 Reg is to be taken at face value (DVLA records aren't always correct); perhaps a bit of restoration work at the time of the respray and hood change. Between 56-63, the Minor had USA style flashing brake light indicators, hence why you see so many with an additional amber indicator at the back. Someone has probably upgraded to the post '63 style to save them adding extra lights.

Back to the pump, I would say that stripping it down to see what is wrong is the best place to start. I see that while I've been composing this, simmitc has explained the tape and given some good detail about the physical possibilities of it being gunked up.
The points and if fitted, the diode, are under that end cover.
It may be that the zener diode had ruptured, I don't know at what point the diode was originally fitted, but it comes in the repair kits as standard.

When you fitted the Accuspark ignition, did you change the car from Pos Earth to Neg Earth, or was it already Neg Earth?
If the Fuel Pump has a Zener Diode fitted it makes it polarity conscious.
The original pumps did not have a diode so were not affected, but you can see where this is going, if you did change the car over and it had previously been fitted with a replacement Pos Earth Pump, that's why it's not working now. Remote possibility, but....

[Blumpygrumf]

The car is definitely negative earth. Had it been positive earth then it would already have gone bang as I've changed the old battery for a new one, along with the parts listed above. The new battery was connected exactly as per the one it replaced, negative earth! The engine runs fine if I bypass the fuel pump, very smooth indeed, far better than I was expecting. All lights work, horn, wipers etc, so the electrics have to be about right in every sense. When I began this topic I just wanted a general idea of what people tend to do when the fuel pump doesn't work, I wasn't asking for an in depth description of the myriad of potential causes.

You say have a look at the existing pump, that's good enough for me, I'll get onto it in the next few days. I'd pretty much come to that conclusion anyway but just wanted to hear the views of the experts here. I am of the belief that this is the original fuel pump though I have no way of knowing for certain.

Now, something you said there I found very interesting. The year I stated is from DVLA records, 1960 it says, but you say their data can't always be trusted, plus you spotted items that wouldn't have been fitted on a 1960's model. So my next question is how to positively identify the model year? Usually I'd look at the VIN plate/chassis & engine numbers but I need something to compare my findings against. Is there a definitive listing anywhere of years/models produced/chassis & engine numbers?

ps: I did look at the VIN plate the other day, I can barely make out any of the details due to age/corrosion/filth (not sure which). I'll clean it up and see what can be learnt.

[geoberni]

I wasn't asking for an in depth description of the myriad of potential causes.

I'll stick to short answers then.

Is there a definitive listing anywhere of years/models produced/chassis & engine numbers?

There are people around her who are very knowledgeable on such matters.
The definitive answer is to apply for a heritage certificate. https://britishmotormuseum.co.uk/archiv ... rtificates

As to the car, it hasn't got an elephant trunk for fresh air, which was introduced around 1964, so it's in the region of 60-63.
The Potteries MMOC website has a lot of useful info: http://potteries.mmoc.org.uk/Identification.htm
It could well be that someone decided they would install Amber Indicators and decided to go with the post '63 installation completely.

I can't see the wipers well enough, but I think if you search 'Wipers' on the forum you'll find that the change from 'Clap hands' to 'both together' style happened at the same time as the rear lights, in Oct '63.

it could also be that the car started off as a 1960 2 door saloon and was converted to a Convertible post '63, with the lighting being done at the same time. There's plenty of conversions out there. The Heritage Certificate would tell if it started life as a Saloon.
The wipers are probably the biggest giveaway as they are by far the larger job to switch over.

[liammonty]

Those rear lights and front side lights are 1963 onwards, so some upgrading has been done if the 1960 Reg is to be taken at face value (DVLA records aren't always correct); perhaps a bit of restoration work at the time of the respray and hood change. Between 56-63, the Minor had USA style flashing brake light indicators, hence why you see so many with an additional amber indicator at the back. Someone has probably upgraded to the post '63 style to save them adding extra lights.

Sorry - I hate this level of pedantry, but we do need to get it right, as it has a bearing on this car. A 1960 car would not have had US-style flashing brake lights as indicators, as I believe ALL cars up until 1961 had semaphores/trafficators and NOT flashing indicators of any type - hence, the car in question, if 1960, should either have trafficators, or there should be evidence of them having been fitted. As Geoberni correctly says, earlier types of indicator were often replaced with the later type, as fitted to the car in the picture. The US-style flashing brake lights were only fitted for a year or two from 1961 until the type fitted to your car were introduced (in '63 or '64?). So the pertinence to this post is that a 1960 car wouldn't have ever had flashing indicators fitted as standard

Pedantry over now I've said my piece

[geoberni]

Sorry - I hate this level of pedantry, but we do need to get it right, as it has a bearing on this car. A 1960 car would not have had US-style flashing brake lights as indicators, as I believe ALL cars up until 1961 had semaphores/trafficators and NOT flashing indicators of any type - hence, the car in question, if 1960, should either have trafficators, or there should be evidence of them having been fitted. As Geoberni correctly says, earlier types of indicator were often replaced with the later type, as fitted to the car in the picture. The US-style flashing brake lights were only fitted for a year or two from 1961 until the type fitted to your car were introduced (in '63 or '64?). So the pertinence to this post is that a 1960 car wouldn't have ever had flashing indicators fitted as standard

Pedantry over now I've said my piece

Quite right. I've made that slip up before, confusing the rear light style with the presence or not of trafficators.
'56-'63 were the same all red rear light cluster (Lucas L549), but only in the brief period 61-63 did the brake light double as the indicator.

Telling off humbly accepted.

[geoberni]

There's a good video of repairing a fuel pump here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU5uLjuOQdM

You'll note that the old pump he takes apart doesn't have the diode, so although he has one on the table provided in the kit, he doesn't fit it....

[ManyMinors]

I wouldn't have much doubt about the claimed age of the car myself. It is fairly clear from the photograph that it has the earlier wipers and the trafficator fittings on the side panels
As for the fuel pump. It is certainly worth trying to repair it if you want to try and save a few pounds - although the repair kits are not that cheap, they are certainly less than a new pump.

[myoldjalopy]

I agree with 'ManyMinors'. It obviously had trafficators originally (so pre-August 1961) but looks like someone blanked them off and insensitively fitted the later lamp/brake/indicators fittings. Chances are they will have also mucked about with the dashboard in some way, and from what I can see, I think the car has been fitted with later seats - and a later engine.

[geoberni]

I wouldn't have much doubt about the claimed age of the car myself. It is fairly clear from the photograph that it has the earlier wipers and the trafficator fittings on the side panels

I couldn't decide on the wipers type with the limited view of the Offside one.
Also, I have no idea how long cars were produced with trafficator blanking plates after they fitted indicators......

[Blumpygrumf]

Thanks for the replies people, it's all very interesting if nothing else, so I'll put a few more photos up here to see if it helps in any way.

I'd wondered what those fairly primitive looking panels were on the side panels, from what's been said I imagine it's the blanking plates for where the trafficators would have been? Just out of interest is it a big job to revert these indicators back to the original trafficators, and are the original bits and pieces easy to source?

Now we know engine's a runner the long term plan for this car seems to be to restore it back to original condition, though that idea may well change depending on what we discover/the expected cost of restoration. We're happy to make the effort and cover the cost, but only up to a point, so a lot depends on what's discovered over the next few weeks.

As for the fuel pump, I'll be having a very close look at it sometime soon!

Lastly, as I've never owned a convertible vehicle I'm unsure on the following. On DVLA's records/the ownership papers, does it state if a car is a convertible? If it doesn't then are there any tell tale signs to identify a conversion versus an original soft top?

[jagnut66]

Hi,
Earlier rear lights are available, L549 is the Lucas type I believe, as are trafficators and the switch for them. The thing about trafficators is that they raised to indicate the direction you were turning but didn't flash like indicators, as modern drivers understand them.
However a solution is at hand in the form of LED 'flashicator' bulbs, that fit straight in where the trafficator bulbs do and flash when the arm is raised, on the standard wiring.
Which is of course the main thing thing you will have to reinstate, a live feed to each side of the vehicle for them. they earth through the body of the trafficator I believe.
Below are some links to items for sale for you. Of course you may save a bit if you shop around and don't forget the club spares (Sparesman on here). I've included a brown trafficator switch, as some say it should be brown not white but that's up to you to decide.
I'm also not sure if the L549 lights will need mounting blocks and the corresponding bodywork rubbers, though I'm sure someone else on here can enlighten you further. The flashicator bulbs are as good a price as anywhere on eBay.
Best wishes,
Mike.

Trafficators:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/lucas-sf80-t ... SwjwNcq6IJ
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-All- ... Sw4PBdm1WK
Trafficator switch:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lucas-Traffi ... Oxy1klRdUj~
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USED-lucas-t ... Swv0tU4cK-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-C ... 1438.l9372
L549 rear lights:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rear-Stop-Ta ... SwtuVa9Yfj
Flashicator LED bulbs:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-MORRIS-M ... SwZ~pdm63W

PS: I blank off / remove the light on the switch when using it for trafficators, as I found if you try and wire it to work when each side is raised you end up feeding the other side and raising both, which can be a bit confusing for the poor sod behind you.....
Maybe someone on here has a solution........

[myoldjalopy]

I suspect that the original trafficators were removed at some point when a previous owner fitted flashing indicators and had those blanking plates fitted. Should be easy to take the plates off and re-fit trafficators (hopefully the original wires are lurking in behind there) but you may have to hunt around a bit to get them at a sensible price. You will also need the brackets that they are fixed to - and bear in mind that these are different for 2-door models, compared to 4-door. I expect you'll want a separate 'vintage' switch for them too....and will have to make up a bracket for it under the dash.

[ManyMinors]

Just a couple of small points.
Mr Jagnut has shown links to the parts which would be required for the model of Morris Minor which HE owns. A Series 11.
The car in question is a Minor 1000 which has different rear lights with a tapered chrome plated base as opposed to the flat base ones in the ebay link which then require a tapered base plinth in order to fit them to the car. Also, the trafficators on a Minor 1000 were operated by a column switch which is probably still there and operating the flashing indicators. IF he wishes to return the car to a completely original state then this could simply be used for its original purpose. Alternatively, and a more visible option, it is possible to use the same switch to operate the flashing indicators AND trafficators at the same time using a different flasher unit for each side. A search of the forum should bring up details of this as it has been much discussed before. Otherwise, you will indeed have to fit a second switch of some sort in order to operate each form of indicator

[jagnut66]

Mr Jagnut has shown links to the parts which would be required for the model of Morris Minor which HE owns. A Series 11.
The car in question is a Minor 1000 which has different rear lights with a tapered chrome plated base as opposed to the flat base ones in the ebay link which then require a tapered base plinth in order to fit them to the car. Also, the trafficators on a Minor 1000 were operated by a column switch which is probably still there and operating the flashing indicators.

Thankyou for correcting me about the column operating switch for the trafficators, I'd forgotton about that later one.
However, I believe early minor 1000's did have the lights I indicated, mine are different to these (earlier), also I believed that they swapped over to the combined indicator / rear / brake light units about 1963, I did ask about mounting plinths, as I was unsure as to whether they all required them.
If his car was of 1963 vintage he wouldn't have blocked holes for trafficators (I used to have a 1963 two door), I believe he originally stated that his car was 1961.
Which means he wouldn't have combination indicator / side lights at the front either, just individual side light units, similar to the below.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLASSIC-MORR ... XQUpZRYWPX
(I can't find a column stalk unit for trafficators, club spares again maybe?)

I was only trying to help with all this because I thought he stated that he wanted to return the car to nearer to what it was originally.
Best wishes,
Mike.

[Blumpygrumf]

The first thing we want to do is get the engine bay sorted, mainly the engine itself. We want it running reliably and correctly, we want it dependable (or as dependable as it can be without taking it for a test drive). So, a few split hoses need replacing, the fuel pump needs sorting and a good inspection of all wiring and components beneath the bonnet along with the switch gear in the car itself. Once we feel confident the engine bay is about right then we'll start stripping the car down. In our minds if the engine isn't good then the project probably isn't viable, so far it's all looking very good.

As for restoring it back to it's original condition, I suspect this will not be a 100% accurate restoration. We are not knowledgeable enough to ensure every single item is accurate for it's period, so we'll not bother trying. We want the car running perfectly, and looking as good as possible, accuracy and authenticity of parts is secondary. I'm sure this will upset many connoisseurs here, for which I apologise, but time and money dictates this project I'm afraid. Having said that, when this car is eventually trundling down the street it will look like a very nice Morris Minor, in every way.

We're reviving a lovely little classic car, bringing it back to life, that's good enough for us!

[geoberni]

I'm sure this will upset many connoisseurs here, for which I apologise, but time and money dictates this project I'm afraid. Having said that, when this car is eventually trundling down the street it will look like a very nice Morris Minor, in every way.

We're reviving a lovely little classic car, bringing it back to life, that's good enough for us!

It shouldn't upset anyone around here.
We've even got someone converting a saloon into a Roadster, basically a convertible without any Hood, and someone who has already done it...
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=70749&hilit=roadster

That's why there are so many sub-Forums on the main index, because we accommodate all manner of Minor Owners.