Problems found today suspension

[EwenCameron]

I went to a local garage today as I wanted some help with welding. My local car club is not insured to do welding in their garage and I don't have a garage at home. What I hoped would be a relatively cheap job to weld under the sill could turn out to be very expensive. I will let you have a look and advice as to what I should do. Would you say it is safe to drive or does this need to go off road straight away. What would you say a reasonable price to fix will cost. [frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

[simmitc]

Definitely not safe to take on the road like that. The rear spring hangers are in danger of shearing away.

Your cheapest option for repair is to find somewhere that you can work on the car - a driveway will do. You can then do the labour for stripping the springs and putting them back later, whilst paying a mobile welder to do the metal work. Your are looking at a good few hours welding plus materials - sills need doing too!

Would really need to look more closely and know local labour rates, but I suspect that you could be looking at £400 - £700. Certainly worth doing unless the rest of the car is about to fall apart.

[bmcecosse]

Oh dear - the rear spring forward mount is very insecure - so off road immediately. Cost - well - there will be more rot than you have found so far, but just to sort out the two areas you show will be £100/200 - maybe more...... Almost certainly the other side rear spring mount will be in very much the same condition unless it has already been done ? I do suggest you thoroughly survey the whole chassis before starting this work, so there are no nasty surprises as you go along - it may be uneconomic to have all the work needed done commercially. Major underbody restorations like this are usually done at home - sometimes over a number of years. Of course - summer's here - and some have done restorations such as this in a temporary structure (lean-to/awning/tent) at the side of the house.

[MarkyB]

The spring hanger looks quite nasty, there is a good repair panel for it.
If picture 4 is a close up of picture 3 then that bit needs replacing but not as urgently.
I'd suggest you contact some local mobile welders and get some quotes.
Find one who is flexible and will lower the price if you do some prep work.
If it has an MOT, I'd be asking some very pointed questions to the station that did it.

[EwenCameron]

Picture 4 is a close up of picture 3. The MOT was done last June before I bought in August. The other side rear spring mount is absolutely fine with no sign of wear. I have been under the car and had the car shaken and the suspension works but will get it fixed rather than go out in it. I have driven approx 4K miles since August with no problems.

[bmcecosse]

If the cops stop you with that - or there is an incident/accident you will be in deep s**t. Don't drive it......

[EwenCameron]

Thanks will get some mobile quotes and get fixed. Thanks for advice.

[bmcecosse]

Best to use the ready made repair panel for the spring mount - and of course - it's CRITICAL that it is welded in absolutely the correct place ! Item # 10 here http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewP ... =17118#top

[EwenCameron]

Thanks Bmcecosse appreciatte your help as always

[MarkyB]

That was a very dodgy MOT, was it done by the place that sold you the car?
I think trading standards would be interested.

In another country, less strict obviously, you could continue driving the car for another year, or two, or three, it would just rattle quite badly without passengers on board.
There are still three and a half mounting points for the back axle so it won't go far, just bang about in a nasty way.

Don't take the word of the first person who looks at it, and ask around family and friends for recommendations.

[simmitc]

Sorry, didn't realise that it was just one spring hanger, thought that it was both. Therefore revise prices down quite a bit.

[rayofleamington]

Spring hanger cracks - ouch!

That was a very dodgy MOT, was it done by the place that sold you the car?

The previous MOT was done in North Yorkshire, just before the car was sold on Ebay (to me) - I had to replace one of the wipers and wiper arm straight away, so that wasn't a good sign. I sold it on (for less) as I had bought another car the same week I got this one and didn't have the money for both. In the month or so we had it, we did the 5-capitals rally without any hassles at all (apart from me running it out of petrol). The other one wasn't up to doing the 5 capitals.
Some parts of the car are better than others - I found a very poor repair on the front NS inner wing/wheelarch so I re-made that before it was sold. There were some other crusty bits including that sill extension panel but the spring hanger issue was not showing mid of last year.

As for driving it - I've had a very similar failure on a SII Traveller 4 months after getting it - the area had been plated by previous owner to get an MOT, but the repair 'over the top of the holes' added absolutely no strength to the spring hanger mounting and the hanger broke away. An MOT is not proof of safe repairs! The spring hanger should be mounted to the floor right through to where the rear seat box section is, and the rear seat box section provides the strength.

I've seen many repairs here where the floor and hanger "look" fine but are not joined to the box section inside so it is NOT giving the strength it should, but will pass an MOT wherever you take it .

On the Trav it showed itself when I had to do some hard cornering at 50mph and the car was very unstable. Very scary moment. 3 mountings for the rear axle is definately not as good as 4! Until then I was unaware how badly it had been repaired.

My advice would be similar to that above. Heavy cornering at speed might lead to trouble. If you drive carefully at a low speed you should be able to get it around garages without any scary moments, but remember it's not just your own safety to worry about. Plenty of cars get driven in worse condition than that, but that doesn't make it a recommendation!

As for getting it repaired, I really recommend to avoid local garages unless they own and repair a classic car themselves or have a good reputation for classic car repairs. The 'average' local garage thinks that the process to repair a sill is to put a panel straight over the top of the old one... Which is one of the worst things you can do. Try asking for recommendations via your local car clubs (doesn't have to be just Minor clubs).

Back when I was 17 (23 years ago!!) my first Minor had a repair to the sill around the seatbelt mount, done by the MOT garage - the repair was so shoddy that I never let any garage work on a Minor for me ever again and learnt to DIY. Obviously if you don't have somewhere to do the work it isn't that easy, so the best you can do is be very choosy about who you let do the work. There are loads of Minor owners who don't DIY, so don't feel too pressured! DIYers are in the majority on the forum and many have had bad experiences with garages but that doesn't mean that all DIYers are doing a good job or that all garages do a bad job.

[chickenjohn]

I agree with the comments to get the spring hanger replaced AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! And the only driving that should be done is to get a quote for the work and corner slowly (you should anyway on a classic car, fast cornering is not recommended!)

I don't agree with Ray that the seat box gives the strength in this area, this is just a spot welded panel thin gauge box section that supports the seat. It is not structural. The strength in this area of the car is in the sills and especially the inner sill, which is ~2mm thick. The new spring hanger plate needs to be butt welded to the floor all around, plug welded to the return lip of the seat box, and especially welded to the inner sill lip. If the inner sill is poor in this area a new sections should be welded in here. It is the box section above the axle, which encompasses this end of the inner sill and at the back end the rear spring hanger that bears the weight of the car.

I very much agree with Ray, though that many local garages will just overlap weld a patch over the rust adding no strength to the car- best to find a decent classic car restorer.

I also think that as the axle needs to be dropped, at least on this mount, and possible more sill repairs will be revealed once the underseal has been stripped back that the £100-200 guesstimate is too low. It is a good few hours work to repair this area properly as well as the other sill hole at the front and depends on the labour rate of the garage and how much more rust etc they find, ... You will need one of these panels, at least :-



Which is £34.50 inc the VAT. Areas beyond this panel may need to be replaced, and also the lower lip of the seat box may have rusted , needing a replacement "L" section being fabricated in.

the job is definitely worth doing, if the car is otherwise good as this is a standard Minor repair that needs doing on most cars during their restoration.

[bmcecosse]

That ESM part is considerably less expensive than the MOS part - I simply pointed to it for ease of finding the part..... My estimate assumed an element of DIY in doing the dismantling/reassembling - but not the welding.
The axle really only has two mounting points - these front ones! The rear swinging shackles don't do much 'locating' !! But I agree - it should be ok (at your own risk) to drive the car around to various repair places - but don't get pulled by the cops !

[MarkyB]

It's got a current MOT, plead ignorance!
I don't think they go in for crawling around under cars much these days.

[kennatt]

quote="MarkyB"]It's got a current MOT, plead ignorance!
I don't think they go in for crawling around under cars much these days.[/quote]
run of the mill police in pandas generally don't but traffic police who all have a vehicle examiners certificates certainly do,if they stop you and decide to examine you,as bmc says ,will be in deep trouble,the vehicle is in an unroadworthy and dangerous condition.They can class the vehicle as too dangerous to move and cause it to be trailored away all at your expence,then you get the fine pleading ignorence will get you no where,its an absolute offence since it's your responsibility to make sure the vehicle is in a roadworthy condition.Don't drive it on the road,and if does come adrift after say hitting a pothole and you hit another car or pedestrian,I bet your insurance company would void the claim as again its part of the insurance deal that you keep the vehicle in a legal condition,then you are in even bigger trouble.

[rayofleamington]

I don't agree with Ray that the seat box gives the strength in this area, this is just a spot welded panel thin gauge box section that supports the seat. It is not structural.

I stand corrected - at least 50%! I must have been having a dumb day
The front of the hanger IS secured by the strenth of the rear seat box section to the floor - the rear of the hanger sits under the sill (inner step) box section where it passes along the rear seat box section (hidden area). Both structures add to the strength ft the mounting.
The issue I have with the plate repair panel is that it can be fitted without considering the stucture that should be the other side of it - and is supplied without any guidance. Therefore many are fitted without considering the structure on the other side. One the 3 that I've done, on 2 of them the structure needed some TLC before the floor and hanger were fitted.

The rear seat box is at least visible - the inner step is hidden where it passes along the seat box, but it is really worth to remove the floor in this area to allow inspection and repair if needed. I've known people cut away the seat box to get at this sill area for repairs, but on a rollign frame it's usually possible to access from underneath and this is a bit less intrusive.

If the car is on a rolling frame, the repair is relatively simple. On the last one I did I rolled the car and then supported the body weight on jacks blocks and props before removing the 'upper' leaf spring. Once the car is supported securely without the frame it's not a problem to remove one of the springs - however as the hub mounted frame relies on the axle location to work securely, it is worth to make a good job of propping up the car first!! Using a hub mounted rolling frame and then just removing a leaf spring is not something I would like to try!!

[RobThomas]

Here is a shot mid-way through the floor repair in this area. Marky B quite reasonably questioned the strength aspects of holes in this area on my car and hopefully we concluded that so long as the vertical panels in this area are secure then there is sufficient load support for the inner leg of the spring mount. It is originally tack welded in 4 or 6 places with the ends sitting just below the front and rear verticals of the 'seat boxing' ( see spotweld line in 2nd shot)and then spot welded to the floorpan along the length of the 2 spring mount brackets. The outboard side of the spring mount bracket sits under the thick chassis rail as can be seen in the following pic and presumably carries more %age of the load than the inboard side. IMHO, if the inboard side has a large chunk of the vertical seat boxing above it then it will feed any loads on the inboard side back up to the main structure of the car. The seat boxing is just under 1mm sheet against the thicker gauge of the sills etc.

Shots show different sides of the car.

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[EwenCameron]

My local car club put me in touch with a welder who has two classics in his garage. He has spent about 8 days on my car replacing parts and welding. Very happy now as feel safe and have even managed to get to a local car rally at East Kilbride at the weekend. There were over 300 classics and about 20 Morris Minors on show. Will underseal some more this weekend. Replaced inside sill and inner front wing as well. [frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

[GAS]

Here is the link to the show
http://mog.myfreeforum.org/about2751.html