Torsion bar C washers

[Mark Wilson]

Advice please. I've completely removed my torsion bars along with the crossmember. I've seen correspondence and diagrams showing the presence of a C shaped washer at the attachment of the torsion bar to the crossmember, but there's no trace of the C washer on either bar. I'm sure that the crossmember has never been replaced, and very much doubt the torsion bars have ever been off. This is a very late Traveller from Adderley Park - did they change the washer arrangement? Should I fit a C washer with the new crossmember?

Mark

[taupe]

Hi

The simple answer is YES the C washer is essential to secure the T bar to the crossmember.

Taupe

[bmcecosse]

The washers should be there - dig around the end of the T bar with a screwdriver. I'm not all convinced these need to be 'C' washers - but certainly you do need a washer in there. Externally (from behind) there is the stepped washer to locate the centre screw from the T bar accurately within the crossmember mounting hole - the 'C' washer just fills the gap and a normal washer would surely do the job.

[taupe]

A normal washer could be used.. but then you would not be able to slide the T bar back to do the eyebolt bushes without disturbing the cup in the front suspension rear arm.

Taupe

[Mark Wilson]

It's unlikely but not impossible that the washers are present, the lever arms are fused to the torsion bars and no chance of them sliding on their splines without a lot of penetrating oil and/or heat and/or swearing. Unfortunately I can't check until the weekend as I'm 170 miles from the car.

Am I looking in the right place? I'm taking this as No 86 on the Moss diagram (which appears to show this as a plain washer) and it should have been over the threaded end in front of the cross member. The stepped washers and star washers were in place. (ESM do a C washer but don't have a diagram!)

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewP ... exID=17091

Thanks as always for the advice

Mark

[taupe]

yes part 86

[bmcecosse]

You don't slide the T bar to do the eyebolt bushes.....no need to disturb the rear reaction arm at all....... I can only assume the C shape washer was to simplify assembly on the line.

[drivewasher]

Is it because my eyebolt bushes are polybushes and stif I can't get torsion bar out of them without sliding t/bar backwards, so I had to remove the C washer.

If the reaction arms are still on your t/bar the the C washer will be inside the rear of the reaction arm, you need to tap the reaction arm forwards to reveal the C washer

[taupe]

BMC

A bit pedantic I know but..

"You" don't slide the T bar to do the eyebolt bushes.. is not correct

I do advocate sliding the torsion bar to do the eyebolt bushes....

Both ways of doing it are I’m sure acceptable but your method does involve disturbing the press fitted cup in the front suspension rear arm each time and rotating the eyebolt in the chassis, mine does not.
With my way you do have to disturb the T bar on the rear lever splines but you then don’t have to disturb the press fitted cup or loosen and rotate the eyebolt in the chassis leg to replace the bushes ... the eyebolt can be very tight/ corroded into the leg.
So there is more than one way to achieve the same result.

Taupe

[Mark Wilson]

If the reaction arms are still on your t/bar the the C washer will be inside the rear of the reaction arm, you need to tap the reaction arm forwards to reveal the C washer

Ah. They are still on, so that may be the answer. Getting the arms forward might involve a bit more than tapping, though....

Thanks for the help all, I'll let you know what I find when I get back home on Friday.

Mark

[bmcecosse]

Taupe - good luck with disturbing the reaction arms ! Most (as in this thread) are completely solid on the T bar. The fronts benefit from leaking oil/grease and usually slide relatively easily. I gather you like making work for yourself! It's MUCH easier to simply swing the eyebolt round when doing the bushes......... and Mark, I did suggest digging in the rear of the T bar to 'find' the C washers a while back on this thread.....

[Mark Wilson]

Back home and things clearer now! First photo shows offside reaction arm & torsion bar end, with C washer clearly visible where it should be. Unfortunately this wasn't the one I had looked at (although I thought I'd examined both). What I'd seen was the nearside side, which as you'll see from the second photo didn't have the C washer and the reaction arm is rusted solidly into place with the bar splines protruding beyond it. In the absence of a washer the bar presumably depended on the rusted splines to keep it in place - it moved freely on the wishbone splines. The third photo shows the t bar before I had removed it - I've checked through the debris below and no sign of the C washer.

You'll probably appreciate now why I was confused. Roy - I had noted your advice to dig around, but as my mental picture was based on the protruding T bar the advice that the washer may be inside the reaction arm seemed to add another dimension.

Many thanks to the brains trust!

Mark[frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

[alexandermclaren]

whoooo More power to the brains trust they are worth their weight in petrol these days
we will never be stuck as long as we have then on line to assist us
its almost like having our own garage boffins by our side

[bmcecosse]

Hahahaha - well done sorting it out -and you can see what happens when the washer (C or otherwise) is missing...

[IslipMinor]

The 'C' washer performs 2 functions:

When removed with the torsion bar in place, it allows the bar to slide rearwards so that the front suspension parts can be removed without removing the eye bolt - assuming all is not rusted solid in the first place.

More importantly it acts as part of the reaction arm location in the crossmember. Without it or any other washer, there is nothing, other than rust, as Mark discovered, to stop the torsion bar sliding rearwards! Also if it moves only about 1/16" rearwards, the vertical and horizontal location is lost and the torsion bar will slop about in the hole, with only the spline o/d to vaguely hold it in place.

The register machined in the 'C' washer fits into front of the hole in the crossmember, as the register in solid washer does on the back of the crossmember, to locate the reaction arm in all directions. A flat washer, without a register, assuming it is at least the same o/d as the 'C' washer, will get distorted when the rear torsion bar nut is tightened and could allow the rear washer to lose its location, which is not a good idea.

Using 2 rear washers with the machined register, one on each side of the crossmember, will locate the reaction arm properly, you just will not be able to slide the torsion bar rearwards at all. The advantage would be no opening for future water ingress and corrosion to take place, as it would all be sealed up - maybe not such a bad idea?

[drivewasher]

The C washer locates into the reaction arm it sits flat against the front of the crossmember/outrigger. The stepped washer that goes on the back of the crossmember/outrigger locates the torsion bar rear vertically n horizontally by the step siting in the rear hole

[IslipMinor]

[frame][/frame]
I don't think the 'C' washer sits flat on the front of the crossmember? It is 'stepped' and the register fits into front of the crossmember hole, the same way that the rear 'whole' stepped washer, fits into the back of it.

[drivewasher]

The C washer sits fully into the "rebated " hole and buts up to the splines in the reaction arm.
The rear step washer sits into the large hole in the crossmember/outrigger to centre the torsion bar.
The C washer isn't stepped at all, it's slot is chamfered on one face this chamfered side goes forward onto the torsion bar, it's only purpose is to stop the torsion bar slipping out backwards

[IslipMinor]

The 'C' washer in Mark's photo is stepped!

[drivewasher]

Mine aren't and new ones aren't. If you look at Marks pic closely you can see on the left hand side there is no sign of a step at all.
What appears to be a step is just a witness mark where the C washer buts up to the rear step washer or a mark from the hole in crossmember which is the same diameter as the small dia of the step washer. The C washer just buts up against the front of the step washer it doesn't locate in the crossmember at all because it sits flush inside the reaction arm. The step on the step washer however protrudes through the hole in the crossmember approx flush with the front face of the crossmember, thats why you can see the witness mark in the pic.