Silted up water channels in Engine Block

[gtt1951]

Hi there,
I've moved my next problem over to here from "Mechanical".
When I bought my SII Traveller, I was very pleased with it - thought all I had to do to get it on
the road was to sort out the brakes and get the engine running evenly - the project has escalated.
[The current engine is a later 1098 upgrade - I have bought an 803cc version which needs work]
I couldn't drain the engine block as the plugged drain exit (see pic)[frame][/frame]
is completely silted up with what looks like slightly oily mud. I have tried to work out the crud
and also have found the bottom of the two rear water channels in the cylinder block[frame][/frame]silted up as well.
How on earth do I clear this mess out?
Do I use the plumber's technique of introducing a Hydrochloric Acid solution?
I've used a wire to poke around and also put a plastic tube down one hole and blew (water came up out
of all the rear water ways.
I tried the same with the drain hole, but nothing happend, as if there is more blockage around the corner.
Any and all help will be gratefully received,
George.

[MarkyB]

Sounds pretty typical, Drain cleaner has been suggested before now, might be Hydochloric Acid solution for all I know.
Usually a bit of wire or a drill bit is enough to clear it out.

[gtt1951]

Thanks for the reply MarkyB.
I did a typo - the acid is known as Hydrochloric Acid and is a de-scaler.
Caustic Soda (drain cleaner) is Sodium Hydroxide and produces a load of heat
in its cleaning/clearing action (I've got some of that as well).
Whatever I try will have to wait until I get the Cylinder Head back on, as I won't be
able to do any forced flushing otherwise - may cost me two gasket sets.
I'd better do this before replacing the water pump (I've bough a used cast iron one
to replace the corroded alloy one currently fitted.
The suggested annual flushing of the water system wouldn't have been acted upon by
previous owners due to the fact that this engine block doesn't have an easy-to-use drain tap,
just a plug (like a sump plug).
The only good news I have, at present, is that the head has passed its Paraffin test, which means that
the valves and valve seats are OK and don't need replacing! Just needs a decoke and new gaskets.

[bmcecosse]

Just poke it with wire. I wouldn't worry about it too much - once it's running, you can flush through with drain cleaner if you feel the need.

[gtt1951]

Hello BMC,
I did the wire poking before posting my cry for help. I also used a flat-bladed screwdriver
to shovel out the muck from the "drain" hole. Looks like the muck goes around a curve and the
wire I'm using isn't following the path (not so much "silt" as "Somme Mud").
When I tested the water channels (that were still full of water) in the top of the block, I felt the long
blade of the screwdriver go into more "mud". Poking the wire down these holes, did go round the channel
bends, but these seemed to head back towards the front of the block.

During the night I remembered that I had a Hozelock "Killaspray" pressure vessel down in the shed and maybe
I could use this to pressure flush into the cylinder block drain plug.
Got the thing out, this morning, and found there to be a crack in the on/off control joint, which allows water
to gush out at that point.
The unit is currently being glued with some Evostick Impact glue and being held tightly closed with a suitable
Jubille clip.
Once it has set, I'll go and try it out on the engine block (plain water to start) - wish me luck ...

George.

[bmcecosse]

It's not that important - later blocks don't even have the access hole. Just boil it all up with the caustic soda once it's all together.

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Also (and no offence meant) the whole engine block is due for a damn good clean!

Looks like you've got an oil weep somewhere?

[gtt1951]

It’s a shame that my never used old stock can of Gunk had gummed up! Otherwise I would have cleaned
before taking the engine apart.
Having removed the head and inspected the gasket and surfaces, there was a breach in the head gasket which
which would have allowed the water and oil to mix, let alone a bit of side blowing.
The hot water flushing did not resolve my problem, but I will try to force a power flush, via the (now removed)
water pump orifice, after replacing the head.
This project has turned into a bit of a nightmare. I'll post my cylinder head findings under a separate topic (mechanical).

[autolycus]

I wouldn't use any caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide) based cleaners. I know there's not a lot of aluminium in or around a Moggy engine (thermostat housing, water pump?) but it will suffer.

Hydrochloric Acid is quite nasty stuff to play with, and you really need to consider how you'll cope with any spillage as well as the stuff you drain out. Central heating system cleaners are often based on "weak" acids, and are safer and easier to use. You can often leave them in for a few days to do their work.

The problems with any of these chemical methods is that, although they will dissolve some of the crud, they simply loosen some too, and this will then circulate and may block the radiator. They may also dissolve the crud that was bunging up holes in the radiator that you didn't know were there. You could rig up a temporary header tank and hoses so that the radiator was out of the circuit while you were descaling, but it's a lot of work.

I've got a car running with a gauze filter in the top hose at the moment in an attempt to stop the crud still being released from the engine from blocking the expensively re-cored radiator. The engine had stood for around 30 years with plain water in it - a warning to us all to use antifreeze as a corrosion inhibitor even if the car's kept in a heated garage.

Kevin

[bmcecosse]

The plain water should very quickly become de-oxygenated, and neutral Ph - so as long as it is not changed - it won't promote corrosion.

[gtt1951]

I've got the engine back together again and running (replaced alloy water pump with a used original cast iron one). The only alloy part left is the thermostat housing (new replacement). Engine still hunting a bit, most likely due to old petrol.
I've used a drill bit (hand held) in the cylinder block drain but, at the 3" depth (mentioned on someone else's topic with similar problems) it hit iron casting and doesn't go around the next bend (nor does any wire) - not certain which way the internal channel bends as the Lidl endoscopic camera, I've used, doesn't get a clear picture (seems to have gone out of focus as well).
I have managed to get a very slow trickle of water out of this aperature when the engine is hot.
Having read the advice, I'll drain the bulk of the anti-freeze mixture, put in plain water and Wynn's Cooling System Flush (pro formula). If this doesn't clear some of the debris, then I'll have problems draining it all out - may have to resort to my old Vax in "wet mode" to suck it out with an adapted bit of tubing.
With the cylinder head in place I don't have access to the engine block water ways, of course, for additional forced flow.
I've already managed to get a bit of water into the oil ways and I'm going to have to use Wynn's Engine Flush prior to draining the oil (will need to get a felt filter as well).
I really didn't want to dismantle the block, at this stage, especially as I haven't yet got planning permission for my new garage - existing integral garage can't be used as it is currently a Strowger telephone exchange and store!
The latter was supposed to become a kitchen-diner back in 1985, but never got around to that conversion.
I'm having to work outside during dry weather conditions.
I do hope to get all my problems sorted for next year's celebrations.
George.

[bmcecosse]

You are over worrying the problem - just run it till spring with the anti-freeze and then - if you really really feel the need to - do the draining/flushing in better weather.

[MarkyB]

Hunting is normally rich mixture, I've never heard of it being attributed to old petrol, just a bit too much!
Make sure there is a tiny bit of slack on the choke cable and that nothing is sticking when you operate it.

[gtt1951]

Hunting was the carb - replaced with with a cleaned up and adjusted spare one and, after using Gunson's Colour-Tune, it is running very well.
Wasn't the old petrol as MarkyB said, which means that I have a further 5 salvaged gallons that I can put in the tank (my son-in-law's Nissan has now been sold with about 20 litres of unleaded still in it).
Donor session in progress (below)[frame][/frame]
I used 2 spare SU fuel pumps, swapping them over when getting too warm.

[redduster]

Regarding water passage cleaning, I was recommended and subsequently successfully tried a washing powder tablet in the rad, ran the car upto temp and drained it with surprising results the water/sludge was astonishing.
Repeated it twice and refilled the system with antifreeze mixture.

Worth trying on an assembled,working engine.

[gtt1951]

Thanks Redduster, I may well try this option - any particular make of tablet?

[plumby74]

Yes, I have had such bad silting or blockage in a 1098 engine that i bought that the localised area at the rear of the engine had overheated and the No4 piston had "collapsed". The alloy of the piston was no longer intact or those piston-rings working.

Using wire and hose pressure was not enough to clean out all the silt: the cast iron you hit with your piece of wire was the outside of No4 piston bore. Only engine removal and a clean out with the welsh plugs/core plugs removed was sufficient, plus a new piston and rings. All due to neglect! Phil, Melbourne, Australia

[gtt1951]

I had a brain wave (turned out not to be too good). The idea was to run the engine up to temperature and, whilst the water system was hot and pressurised, undo the block drain plug and see if anything gets pushed out.
Nothing happened - just a show of a couple of drops!
I then checked the radiator bottom hose - COLD. All other hoses very hot - top hose, top of rad, heater hose (currently comes out of the brass tap by cylinder #4 and then is directly connected to the pipe that goes back to the bottom hose - heater not yet reconnected). Thermostat housing - HOT.
Replaced plug, carefully removed radiator cap (not much hiss) - squeezed bottom hot, water in header tank moved. Squeezed top hose, header water moved. Squeezed very hot, and now quite supple, heater bypass hose - header water moved.
Ran engine up again and listened, by conduction (long screwdriver and ear), to the replaced water pump - humming nicely.
Top of engine HOT, putting face over engine - feel lots of heat - what could be wrong? Stat not opening?
[Note: bottom of radiator drain tap does work and does drain rad].

[bmcecosse]

Nothing wrong - it's perfect! The 'radiator' is doing it's job....

[gtt1951]

BMC, I don't remember my past Morris Minors having such an "efficient" radiator - there should be some warming of the bottom hose, a temperature gradient across the rad.
If the top hose is hot, this must mean that the new stat has opened. Also I can hear the pump running, I'm now wondering if the "used" cast iron one I fitted has some sort of heat operated "clutch" that isn't connecting the impellor (before fitting, turning by hand was OK). I had something like that on my old Opal Record, the mechanically operated fan would run when the temperature rose - I cannot remember the technical term for this arrangement.
George.