timing chain - tinkling

[dudload]

Thanks all! Latest issue is that the can sprocket nut just won't budge. Someone has chiseled the but before, but I'm hammering away and it's not moving. Its not a reverse thread is it? If not any further tips?

[philthehill]

Normal thread.
Take the starter out and jam the flywheel.
You will then be able to easily undo the camshaft nut.
Chiseling the camshaft nut can damage the white metal camshaft bearing so should not be undertaken.
Torque the camshaft nut to 60 - 70 lb ft.
If the nut is damaged replace the nut.
Replace the lock washer.
If you fit the duplex you will need the flat oil thrower plate. The plate is marked 'F' Front which faces forward.

[dudload]

Right nut is now off, thanks for the tip. However after countersinking the bits and getting ready for the final step.... The blooming new crank and cam sprockets won't fit on!

The old ones however slip on nice and easy on both which makes me wonder if the new kit I got from esm is slightly misengineered? Any have a similar problem before or am I doing something really stupid?

[Declan_Burns]

Probably the tolerances are slightly out. That leaves you with two choices. You can send them back or you can enlarge the bore of the sprockets.
Check the bore on the sprockets first. I have used a small diameter flap wheel (~~the same diameter as the bore) on a battery drill for similar issues making differential set-up bearings. Grind it by running it in and out in a circular motion bit by bit until it is a snug fit. Take it slowly. You probably won't have to remove much metal at all. The flap wheel is ideal for hardened surfaces and just removes a tad. It should only take a few minutes and clean off any dust before fitting.

Regards
Declan

[philthehill]

Make sure that the woodruff keys or woodruff key slots (both male & female) are not stopping the sprockets from being fitted.

[dudload]

thanks both! called ESM and they were puzzled, but are sending new ones out to arrive Monday - usual good service there.

on the woodruffs - the old sprockets fit over nice and easy (although are very snug), but the new ones barely even go over the very first part!

if i was to buy a flap wheel, does anyone have the internal diameters to hand? i only have a very innacurate tape measure and don't want to mess up an order

[philthehill]

The camshaft sprocket has a 22.5mm dia hole at its centre and the crankshaft sprocket has a 25.7mm dia hole at its centre.
I would not dismiss the woodruff key slots as I have had on previous occasions to clean them up before now to get the sprockets over both the end of the crankshaft and camshaft.
I would be in no rush to use a flap wheel on the internal holes until all other options have been explored.

[amgrave]

As Phil said, I had to do the same. Take the keys and trial fit them in the respective new slots and file them till they do. Once they fit OK try the sprockets on the shafts without keys fitted and if they are too tight to go on only then remove a small amount of metal from the hole. I just used a small bit of fine emery on my finger for that job in a rotary motion.

[philthehill]

Do not forget to align the crankshaft sprocket and camshaft sprocket by using/adjusting the shims that fit behind the crankshaft sprocket.

[dudload]

all done - the new sprockets arrived from ESM but also didnt fit. I took out the woodruff keys, cleaned and reinserted but still didnt help. A little bit of light filing on the inside of both sprockets and they eventually went on with a snug fit. took the car out for a spin and the tinkling is gone Horray!

however, despite cleaning all mating surfaces and fitting a new gasket and seal i've developed a fairly substantial (2" overnight) leak from the front cover. Looks like i'll need to take everything apart again and use some gasket sealant this time - which i refused to use as thought it was a 'bodge', but wish i had now.

[edd_barker]

2" wide puddle, or 2" deep?! I have the same, apparently it is common for mating surface of cover to distort from previous tightening, and so needs dressing back to flat. It's on my to do list, once I have mentally prepared myself to remove hockey sticks again! I may well use non-setting gasket sealant in there too. It is frowned upon because it is not necessary if the job is done correctly. I personally would rather live with the shame than have to dissemble for a 3rd time!! Hangs head....

[Declan_Burns]

Edd,
Fit 2BA brass wing nuts to the hockey sticks- makes life much easier.

Regards
Declan

[philthehill]

Is the leak from the gasket or the seal?

Before fitting the gasket should be smeared with general purpose grease. That helps with sealing and keeps the gasket supple for much longer.

Did you centralise the timing cover on the crankshaft pulley?

The timing chain cover should be loosely fitted - the pulley inserted and the engine turned over to centralise the seal to the pulley - tighten the timing chain cover bolts progressively.

If you did not centralise - loosen the timing chain cover bolts and turn the engine over by hand to centralise the cover to the pulley - tighten the timing cover bolts.
There may be no need to fully dismantle.

If the gasket faces are clean, the gasket and seal smeared with grease and the timing cover centralised there is absolutely no need for sealing goo.

Did you check the pulley seal rubbing surface for wear rings?

Did you fit the flat oil thrower plate as advised above?

Whilst highly unlikely the question has to be asked - Did you fit the seal the right way round?

By all means check the timing cover gasket face for flatness as advised by Edd above.

BMC fitted an additional stiffener Pt No: 12A666 to help with sealing the lower half of the timing cover gasket and it may be worth fitting one

Unfortunately I have to say that if you need sealing goo the job is not being done properly.

Phil

[dudload]

thanks once again for the comments all - i'll need to have a closer look this weekend, but i didn't center the starter dog before fitting the cover so thats probably the problem. have answered your q's below


Is the leak from the gasket or the seal? Not sure yet, but will check

Before fitting the gasket should be smeared with general purpose grease. That helps with sealing and keeps the gasket supple for much longer. I did this, so hopefully i can reuse if i take it apart

Did you centralise the timing cover on the crankshaft pulley? I didn't and this is probably whats caused the problem

If you did not centralise - loosen the timing chain cover bolts and turn the engine over by hand to centralise the cover to the pulley - tighten the timing cover bolts.
There may be no need to fully dismantle. I struggled with the bolts even when i had the front of the car off, so think i'd really struggle with everything on. worth a shot though!!

If the gasket faces are clean, the gasket and seal smeared with grease and the timing cover centralised there is absolutely no need for sealing goo. I did make sure to clean all surfaces with brake cleaner on a rag, but perhaps the cover is mildly distorted, which is why the last owner resorted to goo

Did you check the pulley seal rubbing surface for wear rings? Yup, all looked good

Did you fit the flat oil thrower plate as advised above? Fitted in front of camshaft sprocket with F side facing outwards

Whilst highly unlikely the question has to be asked - Did you fit the seal the right way round? I hope so, fitted with solid rubber surface against the inside of the cover

BMC fitted an additional stiffener Pt No: 12A666 to help with sealing the lower half of the timing cover gasket and it may be worth fitting one sounds like a plan here, will have a look for the leak source and will report back!

Unfortunately I have to say that if you need sealing goo the job is not being done properly.

[dudload]

Edd,
Fit 2BA brass wing nuts to the hockey sticks- makes life much easier.

Regards
Declan

that's a genius idea - i had so much trouble both removing and resinstalling those bloomin nuts. pack of 10 now ordered

[oliver90owner]

? I hope so, fitted with solid rubber surface against the inside of the cover

Que? Its not the usual oil seal, then? Which side is the spring? To inside or outside if it is the normal oil seal. It should be towards the inside for normal oil seals.

[philthehill]

dudload
Many thanks for the feed back.
From your description I am certain that the seal has been fitted correctly i.e. solid face of the seal forward into the timing cover oil seal recess.
It should be borne in mind though that there are two pre 'A' Plus' timing chain covers fitted to the 'A' Series which are suitable for the neoprene seal & are without the breather canisters fitted.
The first one which allows the seal to be fitted from the inside of the timing cover with the solid face of the seal towards the timing cover case/or forward into the recess.
The second has the seal fitted from the front outside of the timing cover and the open/lip seal spring facing rearwards into the recess.
So long as the lip seal/spring is facing towards the rear/timing chain all will be ok which ever type of timing chain cover is fitted.
There is only one size of oil seal fitted to either cover and which is also suitable for the later 'A' Plus timing chain covers.
There may be a slight change of materials used in the manufacture of the later crankshaft seals as they are orange not the usual black.
Later timing chain cover gaskets were manufactured in a rubberised material which is supposed to give better sealing qualities.
Phil