Doris cuts out

Discuss mechanical problems here.

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myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:20 pm

Doris1970 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:04 pm
A big thank you to you all for the info , I am returning to wales Saturday first thing I will do is check for a good spark and check ignition coil leads have a good connection , but surely they must be connected up correctly as Doris fired up no problem previously , but I will check as a measure of course , I will report back ASAP , once again thanks all cheers
If you haven't altered them since the car cut out, they will be connected in the right order, as she was running before. But it won't do any harm to make sure all connections are good and tight. Check for a good, blue spark at the plugs. If there isn't, check for a good, blue spark at the end of the king lead - the lead from the coil to the distributor cap and report back. You can hold the leads with insulated pliers to avoid getting a shock. On the other hand, if you do get a good spark at the plugs, you can focus on the fuel system........ 8)

oliver90owner
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby oliver90owner » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:03 pm

they will be connected in the right order, as she was running before.

Please don’t believe that as gospel. Engines can still run with all sorts of faults.

Yes, the coil should be wired correctly, but the engine will still run even if wired in the less efficient way. I’ve seen coils wired wrong, before now.

Just like: 1) timing can be wrong, 2) valve clearances can be too tight or 3) too wide, 4) air:fuel ratio can be wrong, 5) oil pressure can be too low, 6) coolant temperature can be too high or 7) too low.. The engine could still run with a combination of that list of faults but just rough and with possible longer term problems - some likely fairly terminal in the shorter term! The list is not a complete one.

myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 pm

Oops yeah! Mea culpa! Lazily misread 'ignition coil leads' as ' spark plug leads'...... :roll: :-?

Doris1970
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Doris1970 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:26 pm

Hi all !! Just an update on Doris. When to wales yesterday to see her and had an idea , seeing as I am in the RAC thought I’d call them out and see what they could do. Nice chap turned up and was over the moon to actually be able to do some good old fashioned mechanics stuff , he had been in the trade for 25 years. First he got the jump leads onto battery to get some life back into it. Then checked for spark to which she had good strong blue spark. Then checked for fuel feed from pump all good there. Removed carburettor and fully cleaned it did have quite a bit of dirt in there. Refitted carburettor and asked me to switch ignition on pump clicked away nicely until float chamber full , he then said turn her over and give her a try. She fired up straight away and we run her for a until warm and no choke. She was ticking over sweet and even. Whiles running He tested the battery for voltage and it read 11.6 to 12.2 which he said was a little low , then he checked the dynamo and it was giving out around 8.9 to 9.3 which he said was a little low too but remember it was only on idle. The blue ignition light was flashing dimly suggesting not charging properly. Then after around 20 mins of running fine a fully warmed up she started to miss slightly when giving her a little bit of throttle. He checked the vacuum advanced and it was not working suggesting the diaphragm had gone. Then Doris just stopped like last time. No fuel again carb block again. He was as disappointed as me. He suggested that it was fuel problem and maybe drain and flush fuel tank and lines. Also put an inline fuel filter between fuel pump and carburettor. He offered to transport Doris home to Cheshire but I declined as I don’t know a suitable garage to take her to as yet. This is my next task to source a reputable garage who know what they are doing. Whether it be in north wales or near home in the Stalybridge area where I live or in the Atherton are where Doris will be garaged over winter. If anyone out there knows of anybody or a reputable place to take her please let me know. I know I’m not suitable competent enough to carry out what may be needed next. The RAC chap said although it was disappointing he was glad it had happened whilst he was still there and that I hadn’t been out and about and it reoccurred. Doris was back with me for about half hour but back to the beginning. Look forward to your comments and any suggested places I can have her transported to. Cheers

Myrtles Man
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Myrtles Man » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:01 pm

Have to say that this experience closely resembles my own 'failure to proceed' experience of a year ago (documented elsewhere on the forum) where a breakdown man spent a great deal of time and effort doing what you describe above, eventually got the car running and followed me home, where it cut out again, refusing to re-start, despite breakdown man's best efforts. He left, suggesting fuel-supply problems, which I investigated at length, to no avail. I then phoned a mobile mechanic that I've occasionally used for other vehicles; 'Sounds like a duff condenser', he said. He was bang on - I replaced the (almost new) condenser with the spare I'd had in the boot all along and the car started immediately, ran perfectly and has continued to do so ever since.

myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Be interesting to see what the charge was like on a 'brisk' idle - it is quite normal that the ignition light would flicker at a slow idle with a dynamo, although my warning light is red, not blue....did later cars have blue ones??
Anyhow....the difficulty is that the problem is intermittent. If the carb was cleaned, and an on-line filter fitted between pump and float chamber, you would think that would prevent dirty fuel stopping the car again (and remember, there is a filter in the pump itself, although they can get damaged over time) - unless the fuel line between tank and pump gets choked. So, whilst it may well be worth cleaning out the tank and fuel lines, it could still be an ignition problem. Chief suspects in this scenario would be condensor, as suggested by 'Myrtles Man', the rotor, possibly the dizzy cap, or even the coil. All of these can cause intermittent problems. I have certainly experienced these symptoms with a rotor that was breaking up. And whilst I agree that 'systematic diagnosis' is the preferred approach, its not always easy when a component is randomly failing - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It won't do any harm to start with a quality condensor and rotor from Distributor Doctor and move on from there........

Doris1970
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Doris1970 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:22 pm

Thanks for replies. We did not put an inline fuel filter on after the pump. So may have dragged more dirt up past the fuel pump filter. Who knows. All I know is I’m having Doris brought up-to Atherton and let a trusted and competent motor mechanic who my uncle has used for years look at her. Hopefully it’s not a tank off and flushed. Does anybody know whether the fuel tank has a drain plug ? I forgot to check before I left wakes. There is a mention in the manual that it does. But who knows. Cheers

simmitc
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby simmitc » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:24 pm

Good idea to get the RAC to earn their money. Result: As I suggested originally, drain and clean the fuel system. You report that there was again crud in the carb, and when the engine stopped, it was a blockage to blame, so we can be fairly confident that it is the fuel. There could be a separate problem like the condenser, but so far the findings confirm that iot is fuel related.

Draining and cleaning is simple as long as you take care and remember how explosive petrol vapour can be. You can certainly get a garage to do it for you, but you will be surprised at how easy this sort of job can be, and it's very satisfying when you fix it yourself.

Picking up on another point: the blue warning lamp id for main beam. The ignitio warning is red. This suggests that a previous owner has put the lampos in the speedo in the wrong place, easily done. Rest by operating main beam and see what lights up.

The dynamo might be not charging, the control box might have a problem; but the voltage needs to be checked with the engine running at about 2,000 rpm, not idle speed.

I suggets that we keep this thread to the "cuts out" and concentrate on the fuel side; and then you can start a new topic on the warning lights and chagring issue.

MOst advice is to NOT fit an iline fuel filter, they have been kown to cause problems. There is a filter in the pump that is quite sufficient; but you do need to flush the fuel system and get clean fuel in there.

myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:42 pm

Doris1970 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:22 pm
We did not put an inline fuel filter on after the pump.
Oh, I see. When you earlier said " Also put an inline fuel filter between fuel pump and carburettor." I thought you meant the RAC chap did that as well as clean out the carb, rather than he suggested that as a course of action.....
Well, you can clean the carb again and rig up the pump to pull new, clean fuel from a container of some sort to bypass any clogged fuel lines from the tank (obviously taking all due precautions), but "a trusted and competent motor mechanic" (a dying breed, it seems) may well be the best way forward now.....
Earlier tanks had a drain plug, but I'm not sure of later models (I'm not so au fait with the more new-fangled versions of the Minor! :lol: )
Do check the pump filter is not damaged - I had one once that had split right along its length!

paul 300358
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby paul 300358 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:46 pm

Mines a 69 and has a drain plug, mind you, it may not be the original tank.

Doris1970
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Doris1970 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:11 pm

any thoughts on the possibility of it being a component that once get hot starts to fail , but if that was the case surely once cooled down again Doris would start again ,

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geoberni
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby geoberni » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:49 pm

See a comment I made some months back: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69837&hilit=Coil+P ... 20#p636467

My issue was a duff Coil.
Basil the 1955 series II

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simmitc
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby simmitc » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:26 pm

The original problem was muck in the carb. With that cleared the car ran for a while then stopped again. Rhe RAC attended and found more muck in the carb. Cleaned and running until "No fuel again carb block again.". Is it only me who can see a pattern here? It looks like a fairly conclusive diagnosis of the problem.

We know that the vacuum advance has failed, but that on it's own won't stop the engine. We know that the voltage at idle is low, but that's to be expected and won't stop the engine. We know that the wiring generally needs a quick once over, but the ignition light in the main beam warning holder won't stop the engine. Yes, the symptoms on their own could be a condesnser or a coil, but we have clear evidence of a fuel related issue. Let's get that sorted and wait until we see whether the engine stops whilst there is still good clean fuel in the float chanber. If it does, then we can work methodically through other possible issues, and there are some good helpful suggestions being made; but let's not get carried away by changing everything at once. Sort the fuel syustem and go from there. At least it sounds as if the OP has a good mechanic lined up.

Trickydicky
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Trickydicky » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:35 pm

As others have suggested you need to ensure you have a clean fuel supply, this means not fitting filters to cure the problem. You need to blow the fuel lines out and disconnect and remove the fuel tank and clean it out and then if faults are still present, eliminate them one by one.
There is a way to ultimately prove it is a fuel problem and this is to clean the carb and fuel pump filter and connect a container just before the pump with as a temporary fuel tank.
With due respect, I don't think you have the skills to do this, is there another owner nearby who could assist?
Richard

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myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Trickydicky wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:35 pm

There is a way to ultimately prove it is a fuel problem and this is to clean the carb and fuel pump filter and connect a container just before the pump with as a temporary fuel tank.
Indeed, as I suggested earlier. It will be very interesting, after all this debate, to see exactly what the issue is when the "trusted and competent motor mechanic" gets to investigate! :D

Doris1970
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Doris1970 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:41 pm

thanks for reply , and Richard I totally agree with you I definitely don't have the skill HAHA , its a shame I don't know another owner near me to advise , Doris is as I type on her way back the Atherton Manchester via transporter, hopefully I can get her sorted . if anybody knows of a knowledgeable person please let me know , I will keep you all updated on progress , cheers

Doris1970
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Doris1970 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:24 pm

Hi al hope everyone had a great weekend , update on Doris . Doris arrived at my uncles Monday of last week via RAC transporter from Prestatyn , she was pushed into his garage for him to investigate . he has been involved in mechanics for over 50 years , I thought if anybody can get Doris going he can .Saturday morning bright and early after couple of bacon butties we were ready to go . So first thing we did was to remove sender unit from top of fuel tank and it was remarkably clean there was a small filter in the which was totally clear an free from any gunk , then he removed fuel pump and attached a section of flexi pipe to copper fuel line and blew back to tank until I saw lots of bubbles back at the fuel tank . replaced sender unit in tank , he stripped and cleaned and reassembled fuel pump everything ok there . he then checked distributor all good there ,checked for spark all good . Battery had been placed on charge and was fully loaded . He then told me confidently Doris will start not a problem , Guess what !!!! Doris started on the turn of the key , GREAT. we run her till fully warm and she ticked over seasonable well , we stopped and started her several times during the day and on each occasion she fired up beautifully RESULT . He did say that the carb will need adjusting and tweaking and that the auto advance vacuum unit was not working . That's the next job .I will keep updates coming thanks

myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:01 am

Thanks for the update and I'm glad to hear Doris is restored to better health - told you she would live again! Sounds like the fuel line from the tank was blocked - happened to me once on the road. That persuaded me to fit a new, bigger tank (mine was a little 5.5 gallon one). I'm thinking that it may now be worth draining and flushing your tank as that bit of crud will still be lurking there - possibly along with other bits! :-?

Doris1970
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby Doris1970 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:22 pm

Yes I will be giving the tank a good clean out , that is the next job this weekend , thanks

myoldjalopy
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Re: Doris cuts out

Postby myoldjalopy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 pm

Great! And just to correct my above post - I can't seem to be able to edit it - my original tank was actually only 5 gallons, not 5.5 gallons :roll: .......even smaller! :wink:


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