handbrake cables.

[kevin s]

Took the minor for a drive today, good news is the gearbox is quiet and shifts nicely, bad news is after a mile or so it still makes the loud shreiking noise. Given all the other horrible noises the box made we kind of went for that without really diagnosing the noise, driving it today it's clearly something at the rear, a quick look when I got back and one wheel is noticibly warm, jacked it up and the wheel won't turn , turns out the handbrake cables are partially seized (around 3 years old), we obviously didn't pump enough grease in to get to the ends when we fitted them or it has gone hard, might try some land rover semi fluid swivel grease on the new ones I've ordered has anyone else used something a bit more fluid?

Also noticed a strange wear pattern on the top shoe, I guess it has been chattering or perhaps it was like this from new I can't remember.

rps20230511_182917.jpg (37.65 KiB) Viewed 912 times

All in all a bit of a pain but at least it forced me to sort out the gearbox.


Also painted some of the dynax ub along the bottom of the sill lets see if this prevents corrosion creeping up from the edge otherwise it might be time for stainless ones.

rps20230511_195004.jpg (180.59 KiB) Viewed 912 times

[svenedin]

Are you sure it is the cable that is getting stuck and not the cylinder that is seizing? Are you testing with the cable disconnected from the cylinder? What is the condition of the drums? Are they out of round? It looks like the drum is distorted from that wear pattern.

Stephen

[kevin s]

Thanks some good thoughts, The whole lot including drums was new 2000 miles ago, not that that guarantees much nowadays and so I will check them, the cylinders move freely on the handbrake link but I haven't checked on the foot pedal which would explain why using the foot brake didn't seem to make much difference, when it stops raining I will go and have a look. Even with the cable disconnected the handbrake is still stiff to pull on so there is definitely something up with the cables. When I pulled the clevis pin out the brakes sprung off and the drum turned freely, At first I thought my son had over adjusted the cable at the lever end but a tug on the cable pulled it another 1/2" out.

[svenedin]

Thanks some good thoughts, The whole lot including drums was new 2000 miles ago, not that that guarantees much nowadays and so I will check them, the cylinders move freely on the handbrake link but I haven't checked on the foot pedal which would explain why using the foot brake didn't seem to make much difference, when it stops raining I will go and have a look. Even with the cable disconnected the handbrake is still stiff to pull on so there is definitely something up with the cables. When I pulled the clevis pin out the brakes sprung off and the drum turned freely, At first I thought my son had over adjusted the cable at the lever end but a tug on the cable pulled it another 1/2" out.

OK. It does seem to be a cable issue. I actually renewed my entire braking system 2 or perhaps 3 years ago. I got the cables from ESM and they have not been a problem. I recall the cables go through guide plates underneath the car where is exits from the handbrake handle assembly. Could it be getting stuck there or somewhere else? Shown on (US) Moss motors diagram as numbers 45 and 46. I just can't remember the entire routing of the cable but what I am suggesting is, would the cable be stiff/stuck if it was off the car in your hand or is it stiff because of something along its route.

https://mossmotors.com/cmini-ukcms0038- ... d-fittings

[kevin s]

Just had a look at it, cylinder moves freely with the pedal and slides easily in the backplate, drum seems round too (less than 0.1mm run out on the outside), I also pulled the half shaft out to check the wheel bearing which feels fine. I'll check the guides in the floor and the carpet as well (not so easy at the moment as it's on a 4 post ramp with my elan parked underneath).

[philthehill]

The wear pattern of the brake shoes is not unusual for only having done 2000 miles.
I would suggest that you replace the handbrake cables and with ones that have the grease nipples fitted (if not already fitted).
It is not unknown for the handbrake cable to fray at either end where the inner cable meets the outer cable so causing the cable to jam or become stiff.

[kevin s]

The current ones do have nipples but the wheel end of the cable is rusty so I don't think the grease ever got through to the end, I've ordered new ones from ESM and some semi fluid grease, will make sure it's worked right through to the end before I fit them his time. If we needed it in a hurry I would add a spring or something in to pull it off but I'm away for a week in the MX5 and my son will have my company car so it can wait till I'm back and the parts are here.

Only other thing I have noticed is the steel thrower which is pressed on the back of the pinion flange and covers the seal on the nose of the diff is loose, don't think this is the noise but if fixing the brakes doesn't fix it I 'll have a look at doing something with that.

[philthehill]

My Minor has always had a coil spring between the wheel cylinder operating lever and the end of the handbrake outer cable to assist in pulling the cable back and off.
I note that the ESM handbrake cables do not have the spring.

[kevin s]

That is what I was thinking of.

It does seem strange there is nothing other than the return springs inside the drum.

[geoberni]

My Minor has always had a coil spring between the wheel cylinder operating lever and the end of the handbrake outer cable to assist in pulling the cable back and off.
I note that the ESM handbrake cables do not have the spring.

There's nothing like that showing in the AKD 3541, not that I can see, either in the rear axle section or the brake control section....
Nor is such a spring illustrated in the Workshop Manual Fig M11.
My car conforms to the parts illustration layout and Fig M11...
.
.

20230513_113058.jpg (1.24 MiB) Viewed 813 times

[philthehill]

Well that may be but I have owned my Minor for well over 50 years and it has always had a helper spring helping to pull the handbrake cable to the off position.

handbrake cable spring.JPG (178.38 KiB) Viewed 804 times

[svenedin]

I have certainly seen cars with that spring fitted. Mine has never had one in my 34 year tenure but who knows if it had one earlier.

[kevin s]

The end of the cable does seem very exposed, as well as being rusty ours was covered in dirt, probably from it's winter use, I'm wondering if I can find some sort of rubber boot to stretch over it.

[ManyMinors]

They are quite exposed but that has never given me any trouble on my cars. Mine are well greased. Adding a return spring - as Phil's car - could help but it wasn't originally fitted.

[geoberni]

Well that may be but I have owned my Minor for well over 50 years and it has always had a helper spring helping to pull the handbrake cable to the off position.

That spring is not the only odd thing about your photo, I've only just realised, but the lever on the cylinder looks wrong, as though the cylinder is upside down?
Are they not Minor Brakes?

[philthehill]

Well spotted.
They are Wolseley 1500 rear brakes.
They are fitted to give a better braking balance to the Marina disc brakes fitted to the front.

[geoberni]

Well spotted.
They are Wolseley 1500 rear brakes.
They are fitted to give a better braking balance to the Marina disc brakes fitted to the front.

[jaekl]

I'm trying to put in perspective the need for Wolseley rear brakes to maintain balance with the Marina front disc. Considering that BMC felt the need to reduce the rear wheel cylinder diameter when the eight inch front brakes were introduced. Presumably this reduction was to prevent premature locking of the rear brakes as the resulting weight transfer lightens the load on the rear axle or was it to reduce the effect of the higher hydraulic pressure due to the smaller master cylinder. Now with Marina front discs there should be even more forward weight transfer yet the Wolseley rear brakes can no doubt provide more braking power. Have you reduced the hydraulic pressure to the rear or do the cylinders have smaller diameter pistons?

[geoberni]

Considering that BMC felt the need to reduce the rear wheel cylinder diameter when the eight inch front brakes were introduced. Presumably this reduction was to prevent premature locking of the rear brakes as the resulting weight transfer lightens the load on the rear axle or was it to reduce the effect of the higher hydraulic pressure due to the smaller master cylinder.

You're not looking at it in the right way from what you have written...
There was no 'reduction' of the rear when the 8" brakes were introduced.
The rear Brake Drum was, and remained, 7" throughout.
It was simply a need to increase the front to 8" at car 990290, when the first 1098cc was fitted.

[philthehill]

The brake line pressure to the rear has not been reduced and the wheel cylinders are standard Wolseley 1500 items.
The Marina front 9" dia discs and 8" dia Wolseley rear drum brakes without servo assistance works very well with very little if any weight transfer from the rear to the front. The front and rear suspension has been upgraded and modified and the car is very light with as much weight transferred to the rear of the car to hold the car to the ground. The 7J alloy wheels with slicks help to keep the grip between tyre and tarmac. The car pulls up nice and straight with this combo even from high speed. Future mods may even include fitting disc brakes to the rear axle.