Rear-Wheel Drift

Post by **ColinP** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:44 am

Your advice welcome on my handling problem....

The recent wet weather has reminded me that my Moggie tend to hang its tail out on sharp benns, and turning out from T junctions.

Usually happens in 2nd gear, and a little of the "back off the power & opposite lock" solves the problem... (except for the look on the other motorist's faces)

As this happens in the wet rather than the dry, I suspect the tyres - they're Dunlop SP6 145 x 14 with plenty of tread depth left.
Is is possible for the "rubber" to harden and lose grip with age/wet?

Oh yes, tyre pressure is 28 psi and it's a standard 1098cc 2 door (not like Cam's mod!).

Any thoughts welcome,

Colin

Post by **Gareth** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:26 am

If the tyres are pretty old, then they can go hard and begin to lose their traction efficiency.

I'm not sure about the tyre pressures - I don't know if anyone knows for certain what pressure they should be at... My handbook recommends 22 front, 22/24 rear, but those figures would have been for crossplies, so... I think I've seen Willie talk about using 24 all round, and mine are set to about 25. I use a garage air line, and get it to fill them to 27. When I check it afterwards (using a proper gauge, not the garage thingummy) it always comes out to 25 and stays there.

You could always try using less power going around corners, of course! *ducks* The fact that it's standard means nothing - there is a large traffic island on my way to Uni, and one day in the wet I used a litttle too much of the accelerator, and had a wonderful tail slide all the way around it... Haven't replicated it since, though ~ 'twas a little scary!!

In fact, I haven't felt that the back end is going to go for some time - since I put new tyres on. Could be the cause, perhaps?

Post by **Cam** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:06 am

Yes, 28 PSI is far too much, especially for the rear tyres.

Try setting them to about 22-24 PSI as Gareth suggests and you will probably notice an appreciable difference.

Although if you floor it around a bend in the wet (especially with adverse camber) you will go sideways, when mine was 1098 and had the standard wheel / tyre set up, it used to go sideways on a regular basis in the wet. In fact I used to like powersliding through the car park at work on a wet day!! and that was with a standard car. the difference now is that I can do it in the dry as well!!

but if you use the "back off the power & opposite lock" a few times and get used to it, you can have a lot of fun, especially when holding a powerslide for as long as possible. The look on other people's faces is usually priceless!

Post by **h_____** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:00 pm

Other things to check are
1) do you Dunlops all the way around - mismatching front and rears can have a big handling effect on mog
2) is the rear suspension in good nick, again weak suspension can have have adverse handling affect
3) Is the tracking out? It costs about £30 to have the tracking done, and it can make a difference to the handling.
4) as previously mentioned tyre pressures

At least the mog is fairly progressive in its handling. I now have marina wheels and 165 tryres, probably too much dry grip, good in the wet and useless in the snow! Now I need a second set of wheels to mount some narrow tyres for winter!

Post by **Willie** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:20 pm

Lo, 22 front 24 rear were the factory recommended pressures for
cross plies. the factory figures for radials were 24 front 26 rear.
As everyone has said, 28 rear is too high. I would personally set
the fronts to as near as 24 as suits you for 'steering lightness' and
then set the rears to the same or very slightly higher. Are you sure
that your rear dampers are working properly??(bounce the corners)

Post by **ColinP** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:41 am

Thanks a lot for the advice - I'll drop the pressures (verbal advice from the Bath Centre was for 28psi).

I have the same tyres all round, and there's no signs of uneven wear, so I think that's ok. - and all the dampers seem fine .

h____ have you thought of snow chains for the winter? That'll scare the rest of the world!

Colin

I did wonder if the SP6's had a reputation for poor wet grip (I had a fiesta with Pirellis some years' ago - great in the dry, naughty word in the wet!)

Post by **h_____** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:48 am

Colin, yes I have, but too much to ask the wife to fit these in the office car park. We got caught out in the snow this year, and the performance was embarrasing. My solution now is find a set of "winter wheel" and fit with narrow tyres - like the original wheels! Then I'll fit these in November, and take them off in March. Should also aid keeping the "summer" wheels nice. Those of you with standard wheels will now be thinking " has he lost the plot"!

Post by **Gareth** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:01 pm

Has he lost the plot?

Colin - how old are the tyres?

Post by **ColinP** » Thu May 01, 2003 8:27 am

Gareth,

We've not lost the plot yet, though I'm thinking that a discussion of studs and chains sounds more like a Punk message board! (shows age)

Seriously, I have no idea of the age of the tyres, I've had the Mog for about 9 months. I guess (from the lack of Internet information that Dunlop SP6's were made some time ago, and as they're radials, there unlikley to be the original fit (1967)......

I'll try to find out, but I guess I'll be saving up for 4 or 5 new tyres (sigh) - all of them have similar tread depth (& the spare's a michelin X).

Thankjs to all,

Colin

Post by **Gareth** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:39 am

I had a Michelin spare tyre, which I have finally (after three years) got rid of. I didn't know how old it was, which worried me, and it was starting to crack around the outside edges... It was suitably dispatched to the bin, and one of my "old" tyres from the front supplemented for it - I know how old those were!!

Post by **Willie** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:27 pm

That is the ONLY problem with radials on the Minor....they last so long
that in the end it is usually the sidewalls which crack and result in
an MOT failure (not a bad problem is it after many manyyears)? I
wonder if regular use of the modern 'tyre treatments' will stop the
cracking? These treatments all state that they protect and preserve
the tyres.......time will tell.

Post by **ColinP** » Fri May 02, 2003 8:49 am

Thanks all,

Those great people at Dunlop Technical Services reckon that the tyres are most likely end of 1983 (for 3) and end 1985 for the 4th wheel. It's a little difficult reading the batch numbers after all this time.

They recommend a 10 year life (max), so I'm starting to look for replacements (take that wallet!).

I've also had cracking sidewalls with other cars (usually Michelins 'cos they don't wear out that fast). I've taken that to be a sign to replace them - it looks silly driving around with the inner tube poking through the rubber!

Colin

Post by **Kevin** » Fri May 02, 2003 9:06 am

Colin
Bull Motif have Firestone tyres at £18.49 + vat for 145 x 14 at the moment, they advertise in the club mag, you can contact them on 01386 831755 or email bull.motif@virgin.net

Post by **Gareth** » Fri May 02, 2003 12:50 pm

The 155's are £20.95 + vat, if that's any help - those are what I use.

Post by **ColinP** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:42 am

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions!

I was doing the routine grease nipples & brake adjustments (3000 mile/3 month service) this week-end and the front O/S tyre was down to the wear indicators on the inner side.

I also found that none of the tubes were holding their pressure, so I did a little survey of the local tyre fitters - Humphries were the least expensive - and all the bits should be delivered today (2 days from request).

The tyres were 155x14, (I read the tyre wall!) so I reckon they've gone past their grip by date.

Colin

Post by **Gareth** » Tue May 13, 2003 7:44 pm

"Grip By date". Fab!

Ever since I've had Phyllis, she's had inner tubes. I recently had new tyres fitted at the front, and the tyre place was quite happy to fit them without tubes. They've been on for a month, and haven't lost any pressure, so you might be able to save a few quid...

Post by **fweddy** » Tue May 13, 2003 9:26 pm

My tyre place put tubes in three of my tyres which had been tubless saying that they were ment to have tubes and it would be on them if any thing happened - fact is that the tubeless tyres are fairly worn so they must have been on for a fair while and I know the vehicle had been sitting for a number of years on those and the tyres were still tight when I took them off.

Post by **Willie** » Wed May 14, 2003 7:48 pm

You should change your tyre fitters then. Tubeless tyres are NOT
finished off smoothly inside as there is no need and if you are
using radials(which are all tubeless) then fitting tubes results,after
some time, in a puncture caused by the innner tube chaffing on
the rough insides of the tyre. I have been using tubeless tyres on
Minors for over forty years and have never had,or heard of,any
troubles caused by fitting tubeless. I have never had trouble from
tyre fitters either!

Post by **fweddy** » Wed May 14, 2003 9:47 pm

To tell you the truth I think their comment was more an issue of saving face. You see I had my tyres taken off, repainted the rims and took them in to be put back on - there were two tubes as the spare was a crossply and one radial had a tube - I figure they thought there were three tubes missing so put others in and made the comment that they were old rims so needed tubes to save face.
I'm not too worried as most of the tyres are pretty worn and I'll be replacing soon but just want to save the expense right now while I'm doing the whole resto.

Post by **ColinP** » Thu May 15, 2003 8:15 am

Willie,
Thanks for the info - The SP Elite I have fitted are radials with the legend "Tubed" on the side - so they are radials which were intended for a tube (IIRC - so are the Michelin X). Whether the Firestones are or not is something I'll find out.

I agree with previous posts - the fitters will be liable if they were "negligent" in the fitting, and the 30+ year old wheel centres may not be airtight nowadays (plus lack of safety ridge & flat). If they are held liable (in contract - see Supply of Goods & Services Act), they they will have to cough up for all the forseeable consequences - this could include car accident, loss to all parties involved, death & injury claims. so they will always "play safe".

Colin