Engine ID

Discuss anything Morris Minor related.
Forum rules
By using this site, you agree to our rules. Please see: Terms of Use
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Engine ID

Post by rocco »

Hi Gang
I'm trying to get an idea of the kind of engine I have in my car. It's stamped 950 on the block but 2A799 is forged in to the steel with some other letters and numbers which I have no clue about.
On the head, the metal tag/plate is 8G10 R M79363 A D
The websites I've found don't identify 8G10 at all. Mgaguru only mentions 8G9. It seems to be a gold seal but with the odd rear wings, I can't be sure whether the engine is a mix-and-match or not. The head has blue paint on it, the block and rocker cover are gold.
Can anyone make it clear for me please? I have to know what I'm dealing with before I can buy parts. :tu1:
Cheers
1961 Morris Minor 1000
User avatar
geoberni
Minor Legend
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
Location: North Leicestershire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by geoberni »

That is a Gold Seal Reconditioned.

8G is the code for a reconditioned A series 803, 848, 948, 1098 and 1275cc. (84G was B series and 86G the C Series).

I don't know what the '10' was for, just as I don't know what the '8G162' is on mine.... :roll:
But this link indicates it's to do with the Bore size and other aspects of the reconditioning.
https://www.mginfo.co.uk/upgrades4mgs/f ... umbers.pdf

I've seen one site that suggests the 2 stamped in letters were the initials of the person doing the job. In which case all I can suggest is that AD was a very busy person.

You mentioned 2A799, that is the Block of a 948. As you've already identified, it's a '950' Block. See here,
viewtopic.php?p=642731#p642731
Basil the 1955 series II

Image
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

Thanks for that. Any idea how I reference my engine to the one stated on that website? Where would I find "APJM" and do you know what "10HP" is supposed to represent?

APJM 948cc Morris Minor 1000 OHV engine 10HP.

It's all rather confusing, at least for me.
1961 Morris Minor 1000
nutmegct
Minor Fan
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:08 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by nutmegct »

Rocco - if you look in the pdf file GeoBerni posted, you see:

APJM 948cc Morris Minor 1000 OHV engine 10HP.

Hope this helps.
Tom m.
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

nutmegct wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:22 pm Rocco - if you look in the pdf file GeoBerni posted, you see:

APJM 948cc Morris Minor 1000 OHV engine 10HP.

Hope this helps.
Tom m.
Thank you Tom. I realised that and that's why I posted that exact reference. What I cannot find are the letters APJM on the engine anywhere nor do I know what the 10HP is referencing (unless it's a reference to the amount the cylinder was honed during the reconditioning.
1961 Morris Minor 1000
nutmegct
Minor Fan
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:08 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by nutmegct »

Sorry Rocco. Somehow I thought what you posted was what you saw on the engine!

I've found a couple references here on the forum, regarding engine id numbers being embossed (raised) on the manifold side of the block. Mine is difficult to read, but shows:

Front: MOWOG
158

Center: 950
051

Rear: 2A
799
W

Being new to the Morris world, I don't know what those figures mean (other than MOWOG). I wonder if the engine "type" (such as APJM) wasn't marked on the engine itself. And I wonder if the "10HP" in the chart refers to taxable horsepower?

Tom M.
POMMReg
Minor Legend
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:17 pm
Location: Gloucester
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by POMMReg »

APHM 948 (duck egg blue/red sump) 9/56 to c7/57
Further investigations uncovered it was an inside job!!
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

POMMReg wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:59 pm APHM 948 (duck egg blue/red sump) 9/56 to c7/57
Yes, that reference is also listed on the website that geoberni kindly shared with us:
APHM 803cc Morris Minor MM OHV engine, 8HP. ( first 'A' series.)

That isn't the engine I have though. What I am trying to do is to confirm whether or not I have a matching/compatible block and head and not a pick and mix variation by a "creative" mechanic. It looks like I have a gold seal lump but anyone can paint an engine gold! :D
1961 Morris Minor 1000
philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 10818
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Hampshire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by philthehill »

You have posted that the block casting number is 2A799 which indicates a 948cc engine block. You now need the head casting number (can be found under the rocker shaft).
The correct 948cc head casting numbers are either - 2A628, 2A629 or 12A1456.
Those number will then determine as to whether the block and head are matched.

jaekl
Minor Addict
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:40 pm
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by jaekl »

The metal tag with the 8g10 that you say is on the head is the engine serial number and indicates that it's a replacement engine. The original engine would have had a metal plate with the engine serial number which would have had the prefix APHM. The engine serial number plate is attached to the top of the block above spark plug number one. APHM will only appear on this engine serial number plate. It is not a permanent part of the engine.
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

philthehill wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:23 am You have posted that the block casting number is 2A799 which indicates a 948cc engine block. You now need the head casting number (can be found under the rocker shaft).
The correct 948cc head casting numbers are either - 2A628, 2A629 or 12A1456.
Those number will then determine as to whether the block and head are matched.
Wow, thanks so much for that, I've made a note of it. As soon as the engine is out and the head taken off, I'll be able to confirm. :tu1:
1961 Morris Minor 1000
User avatar
geoberni
Minor Legend
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
Location: North Leicestershire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by geoberni »

Just to clarify a few bits as some of us were confused by your writings...

The Engine Serial number is on the tag riveted to the top of the Clock near #1 Plug. It will not be on any component elements of the engine, Block, head etc. They all have their own part number but no serial number.

8G10 R M79363 A D That indicates it is a Gold Seal Recon A Series, but does not indicate the engine size.

The 950 cast into the Block says it's a 948 Block.

The head number, of which there is a possible selection, can be seen on the head once the rocker cover is removed, it can be in various places but it is lurking around the top somewhere.
It can be between the valves or in the case of my engine it was in the extreme corner.
Lots of dabbing up of surface oil was required to find it.

As to the 10HP in the lists, that as you surmised, is the Horse Power.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

jaekl wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:52 am The metal tag with the 8g10 that you say is on the head is the engine serial number and indicates that it's a replacement engine. The original engine would have had a metal plate with the engine serial number which would have had the prefix APHM. The engine serial number plate is attached to the top of the block above spark plug number one. APHM will only appear on this engine serial number plate. It is not a permanent part of the engine.
Aha! Thanks for the advice. I didn't realise that a replacement engine would lose the prefix. From the link provided earlier, the engine code APJM is only valid for those between 1936-1956.


On mgaguru, Keith Dodd has provided the following useful info.:

"During the 60s when I worked for HA Saunders we received gold seal engines every week and many were oversize pistons, mainly 30 thou which is now not made by piston manufacturers. I had an 8G9 engine in my Austin A35 with FA stamped, F for 30 oversize pistons and A for the std crank. --- We would always look for Mini engines especially Coopers with larger bores and std cranks for competition use. Anything up to H was plus 40 was fitted. From my notes at work see below.
On Gold seal engines there is a stamped in code (not the raised code) on the engine number plate, both letters tell you, the first letter is the bore size and the second letter is for the crank size. for example my 1957 A35 with 8G9 engine was FA which (F) meant 30 thou oversize block and (A) was standard crankshaft. (M) rarely ever being used".
A = STD
B = 10thou
D = 20thou
F = 30thou
H = 40thou
M = 60thou


My car has a tag with some raised letters and numbers and with "A D" indented/punched underneath. Meaning it has a standard crankshaft and a cylinder bored out by 20thou. Or is it the other way around as described in the "FA" example above?
1961 Morris Minor 1000
User avatar
geoberni
Minor Legend
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
Location: North Leicestershire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by geoberni »

rocco wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:08 pm
"During the 60s when I worked for HA Saunders we received gold seal engines every week and many were oversize pistons, mainly 30 thou which is now not made by piston manufacturers. I had an 8G9 engine in my Austin A35 with FA stamped, F for 30 oversize pistons and A for the std crank. --- We would always look for Mini engines especially Coopers with larger bores and std cranks for competition use. Anything up to H was plus 40 was fitted. From my notes at work see below.
On Gold seal engines there is a stamped in code (not the raised code) on the engine number plate, both letters tell you, the first letter is the bore size and the second letter is for the crank size. for example my 1957 A35 with 8G9 engine was FA which (F) meant 30 thou oversize block and (A) was standard crankshaft. (M) rarely ever being used".
A = STD
B = 10thou
D = 20thou
F = 30thou
H = 40thou
M = 60thou


My car has a tag with some raised letters and numbers and with "A D" indented/punched underneath. Meaning it has a standard crankshaft and a cylinder bored out by 20thou. Or is it the other way around as described in the "FA" example above?
That's a fairly recent addition to the mgaguru website. I've seen other places, as I mentioned previously, where the additional 2 letters, i.e. the 'AD' was alleged to be the engineers initials...
Most examples I've seen have been AD, including my own car's engine, so I'd go with the interpretation of Block and Crank in that order, so A = Standard Block and D = 20thou oversize Crank.
But to be quite honest, does it really matter?
Does it affect the price of fish, to paraphrase an old saying?
It's only relevant to any future Refurbishments, when new measurements will be taken anyway. So it's only of curiosity value.
So long as you know what engine you have, that's really all that matters.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

Well, I suppose it only matters in terms of gaining some potentially useful knowledge and for getting a starting position when considering spare parts (bearings, rings etc). I am about the strip and rebuild my engine and I'm of the persuasion that absolutely any knowledge is good knowledge - when I currently have none. I'll admit that there is a bit of plain old curiosity too though :D :tu1:
1961 Morris Minor 1000
User avatar
geoberni
Minor Legend
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
Location: North Leicestershire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by geoberni »

rocco wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:13 pm Well, I suppose it only matters in terms of gaining some potentially useful knowledge and for getting a starting position when considering spare parts (bearings, rings etc). I am about the strip and rebuild my engine and I'm of the persuasion that absolutely any knowledge is good knowledge - when I currently have none. I'll admit that there is a bit of plain old curiosity too though :D :tu1:
But you'll be taking new readings of what wear you find.
I imaging you might find markings internally that will give you far more insight that a couple of letters on an external plate will tell you. :wink:
As you say just good old curiosity. :)
Basil the 1955 series II

Image
User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

I took the head off my 948cc block last week and am now trying to identify it before getting on with the reconditioning.

Head_ID.jpg
Head_ID.jpg (42.76 KiB) Viewed 8690 times

To my eyes, which aren't that good any more I admit, I see 12 G 202 and according to a chart I found on another thread on here, that means it's a group B 997 or 1098 with square intake ports - only it doesn't have square but round intake ports.

Head_ports.jpg
Head_ports.jpg (63.22 KiB) Viewed 8690 times

There is what "looks" like might be a "B" on one end of it

Head_ID2.jpg
Head_ID2.jpg (251.46 KiB) Viewed 8689 times

And also this number which might be "20H0".

Head_ID3.jpg
Head_ID3.jpg (115.89 KiB) Viewed 8689 times

Could anyone help me out please - what kind of a mongrel head do I have?
1961 Morris Minor 1000
philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 10818
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Hampshire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by philthehill »

The square inlet ports refer to the mid position of the inlet port and from your photo I can see the inlet ports are square mid position.
The 12G 202 has the square inlet ports.
Forget about the other casting numbers/letters they are just casting numbers/letters and can be ignored. The 12g 202 number is the identifier.

User avatar
rocco
Minor Fan
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Location: Germany
MMOC Member: No

Re: Engine ID

Post by rocco »

Cheers Phil. :tu1:

Being that this head is not an original match for the 948cc block, is it considered an upgrade? Is performance affected even in a small way?

I would prefer to have an original matching head, just because I know so little about them but if this one is a good match then I suppose it can stay and get cleaned as intended.

Wire Dremel wheel brushes were delivered today along with some scotchbrite and stuff. A valve spring compressor should be here by the weekend. I'm finding lots of good cleaning tips and guides on youtube to aid me along my first head rebuild.
1961 Morris Minor 1000
philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 10818
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Hampshire
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Engine ID

Post by philthehill »

I would suggest that there will be no noticeable difference in performance.
The 12G202 head needs to be skimmed by around 0.030" to return the combustion chamber to the 24.5cc of the 2A262 (948cc) head. The 12G202 head has a combustion chamber of 26.1cc. So, fitting the unskimmed 12G202 head to a 948cc engine actually reduces the compression ratio. Some of the lower compression ratio is negated by the larger inlet valves 1 & 5/32" used for the 12G202 head. The 2A262 head has 1 & 1/8" inlet valves.
One of the best things you can do to either the 12G202 or 2A262 heads is fit the top hat seals to the inlet valves (not exhaust valves).
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... e-p1238953
You will need to fit the special grooved valve guides from ESM which is an easy job.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... l-p1209547
With unleaded fuel the engine will tend to run hotter, so the exhaust valve stems need to have sufficient oil to lubricate them otherwise they may pick up and seize. Do not even fit the totally inefficient 'O' ring seals.
With the 2A262 head when fitting the top hat seals, you will need to remove the valve stem shrouds as they do nothing and were discontinued on later heads. Item No: 54 in the link below
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-m ... 51-71.html

Post Reply