Engine Copper Heater Pipe - Does this look normal?

[Chief]

Hi,
Several years ago my Mothers' Minor had a lot of work done by a garage, it was returned with the work completed and the garage closing down that day (we were their last job ever).

Due to other things, the car ended up being put away. I was out at it yesterday and noticed the top rubber heater hose (that feeds into the bulkhead) was split, not burst but almost like it had been cut or caught something very sharp.

I also checked the radiator, completely dry inside, no sign of any water/coolant at all.

There's enough length on the hose to re-fit it with the damaged section cut off:

hose_damage.JPG (597.01 KiB) Viewed 449 times

though there does appear to be a small split further up which may or may not be repairable with rubber tape (not even sure if it's a hole that goes through or not in truth). Should say wiped down with damp cloths rather than washed:

bottom_hose.JPG (1.12 MiB) Viewed 449 times

However what worries me is (having never seen one before with the pipe off) whether the copper heater pipe (that has the riveted on warning label) is okay, and if they always look like this at the bend?

pipe_side_view.JPG (969.23 KiB) Viewed 449 times

pipe_side_closeup.JPG (823.74 KiB) Viewed 449 times

pipe_top_view.JPG (712.51 KiB) Viewed 449 times

[Bill_qaz]

The copper pipe looks to have been kinked by bending, if you remove the pipe and warm it and gently tap it back to shape. Warming it with a blow lamp or gas torch will soften the copper. If you try it cold it will likely split.

[myoldjalopy]

As for the hose, I would be tempted to replace it. Yes, you could cut the end off and re-fit, and you could try and tape something over the split, but it suggests the hose is perishing and likely to break down again. Who knows how old it is? Always worth periodically checking the condition of all hoses.

[Chief]

The copper pipe looks to have been kinked by bending, if you remove the pipe and warm it and gently tap it back to shape. Warming it with a blow lamp or gas torch will soften the copper. If you try it cold it will likely split.

Thanks for the reply.
Now that the heavy storms have passed over I was able to compare it to my 1098.
I wasn't sure how much if any difference there'd be between her 948 and my 1098 and there is actually one difference in that my own pipe is actually longer on the horizontal section than the one on the 948.
It extends a good 1-2 inches beyond the clamp on the engine before gracefully curving up with no flattening to the pipe whatsoever, while as you can see in the photo the bend on the 948 is straight after the clamp.

While it's possible that I made it worse removing the hose, I was able to look back at the engine bay photos from when the car was bought and noticed that even there that pipe is aimed towards the front grille more compared to my 1098 where it goes straight up towards the bonnet.

Who knows how old it is?

It still looks in new condition externally, but it's just over 10 years old as I looked at the old sales invoices from the previous owner and it was purchased in 2013 from ESM.

What surprises me is, if the hose were failing I would have thought that there would be some bulging or distortion, not just a perfect straight cut akin to a knife cut.

All that said, I realise the photo of the hose was pretty lousy.

[Chief]

So last night I spent some time going through image searches and YouTube videos, I can at least confirm that on some 948 engines the pipe did angle forwards towards the front of the car:
https://potteries.mmoc.org.uk/Members_C ... 6B_026.JPG
https://potteries.mmoc.org.uk/Members_C ... 6B_115.JPG
(there were others but Cam's photos are clearest).

One thing I couldn't tell is how much of an angle and curve the pipe should have to know if the one on my Mothers' car is excessively bent forward or not.

Anyway, I spent about an hour heating and tapping the pipe this is how it currently looks (it is a lot less kinked than it was):

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IMG_1062.JPG (1.15 MiB) Viewed 353 times

IMG_1063.JPG (1.18 MiB) Viewed 353 times

Does this look okay to re-fit?

[svenedin]

The 948cc had the copper heater return pipe on the manifold side of the engine. On the later 1098cc this had changed to the other side of the engine.

I think your pipe is fine except at some point it has been kinked. If the heater works properly I would not worry but if the heater hardly works then that kink may be restricting the flow (although usually poor heater performance is due to sludge in the heater matrix). Engine function is not affected by this kink so do not worry. It only affects the heater.

Stephen

[Chief]

On the later 1098cc this had changed to the other side of the engine.

I take it then there was an early 1098 and a later 1098 since my 1098 has the return pipe manifold side as well and my car is only a few months older than my Mothers.

I did wonder whether the kink had somehow caused some form of back pressure which was why the heater hose had broken (though it really does look like someone managed to slice it).

No idea if the heater works as, not only is the car out of coolant, it's also been found to have no fuel in it whatsoever (or at least putting a long cane down the filler came back up with a dry stick, just in case the guage was reading wrong) - and the battery has died (won't charge beyond 11.5v and water levels are good).

All fun and games

[svenedin]

On the later 1098cc this had changed to the other side of the engine.

I take it then there was an early 1098 and a later 1098 since my 1098 has the return pipe manifold side as well and my car is only a few months older than my Mothers.

I did wonder whether the kink had somehow caused some form of back pressure which was why the heater hose had broken (though it really does look like someone managed to slice it).

No idea if the heater works as, not only is the car out of coolant, it's also been found to have no fuel in it whatsoever (or at least putting a long cane down the filler came back up with a dry stick, just in case the guage was reading wrong) - and the battery has died (won't charge beyond 11.5v and water levels are good).

All fun and games

Yes the heater return pipe changed sides on the 1098 but I am not sure exactly when. The pipe that goes on the dynamo side of the engine is a different shape.

Batteries don't tolerate being left flat. The plates get sulphated and then it will not fully charge. It's had it I am afraid.

You'll need to replace the cooling system hoses and this would be an excellent opportunity to flush out the cooling system.

As for the tank being completely dry of fuel this could give you quite a lot of issues. When fuel dries out slowly it can leave a horrible sticky brown mess called "varnish". This gums up the fuel system and can block the fuel line from tank to pump, the pump and the float chamber needle valve. It's very hard to remove varnish as it does not re-dissolve easily in fresh petrol. I believe acetone works quite well (beware this attacks some plastics). I had a lot of trouble re-commisioning a Morris with these issues a few years ago.

Stephen

[Chief]

It's had it I am afraid.

It had a good run, it came with the car and the date on its' label is 2013 and I'd actually had it out of the car sometime last year (I think it was) to recharge.

You'll need to replace the cooling system hoses

I presume you mean the heater hose which for now I've cut the broken section off of and refitted (along with the copper pipe etc.) since there was enough length to it. Currently what I thought was a hole (but doesn't actaully go all the way through) I've bound in self-amalgamating rubber tape as a stop gap measure.

In removing the copper pipe I did find coolant still in the bottom radiator hose up the part that the copper pipe goes into, and as far as I could see all the other pipes weren't split etc. so I believe any water loss must have been from the heater hose.

I was slightly suspicous of the jubilee clip that holds the copper pipe to the bottom radiator hose as it kept popping lose on being tightened, can you even over-tighten a jubilee clip enough to make it jump?

When fuel dries out slowly it can leave a horrible sticky brown mess called "varnish".

I know that the garage that did the work had to clean out all the lines due to blockages. The petrol tank I would say from external appearance has been replaced at some point, which presuming it was the previous owner would mean 2013/14 at a guess

What I'm wondering about is, I was sure that 2022 or 2023 we put in a 5L can of fuel, and I don't recall it being run. If this is the case, where's the fuel gone, is the original fuel cap able to evaporate that much fuel over the course of a year or two?
(I have a locking fuel cap and have never lost any noticable fuel to evaporation).

[svenedin]

The filler cap is vented and has a hole in it on purpose. The cork sender gasket does seem to allow petrol vapour through and the filler hose may be old so yes, 5 litres of fuel could evaporate in 2 years.

Where the copper pipe joins the radiator bottom hose the clip has to be placed carefully. If the clip is too low it can actually squeeze the copper pipe back out. You have to make sure enough copper pipe is inside the stub on the rubber hose.

This is a 1098 but shows the copper pipe and hoses

IMG_9797.jpeg (3.22 MiB) Viewed 312 times

[myoldjalopy]

I would definitely be replacing that damaged hose and examining the other hoses very carefully, especially after getting the car running again as the hot water can hasten their deterioration if on the way out. Numerous reports on here in the past poor quality rubber components.
As for the jubilee clip, yes, they can sometimes slip when trying to tighten - either worn out from over-use, or poor quality. Its happened to me (in that instance it was poor quality.....I can't remember where I got it from). So I advise replace that as well.

[svenedin]

A set is of very good silicone rubber hoses which come with new jubilee clips is available from ESM (heater hoses are a separate purchase).

Stephen