Legal Questions

[Pyoor_Kate]

Hi folks,

Has anyone had any experience of taking restoration places to court to gain recompence for work done to an inadequate standard?

My poor mog recently went up to JLH who've discovered a poor standard of repair hidden below the skin of the previous restoration, and I'm hoping to either take them to the small claims court, or whatever else a solicitor recommends, to get some kind of recompence for the work that was carried out.

So, if anyone has any useful advice for me, that'd be really handy about now.

--
Kate E

[motherofgod]

I've had experience and it takes a long time and you don't always get satisfied even when it's gone in your favor.

James

[badfelafel]

Few questions for you:
1) How long ago was the work carried out?
2) Did you arrange for the work to be carried out, and did you pay for it?
3) Do you have any documents relating to the work - proof of payment / details of the work that should have been done?

You should also ask yourself what it is you're looking for: do you want them to repair their bodge? What loss have you suffered? Is it actually dangerous?

Before actually lodging your claim with Small Claims, you should write to the garage telling them of your concerns and see what they say. They will say no (of course). Then you should tell them that you have taken advice, and will be taking legal action unless they stump up (be firm but polite). The letter should state all the details and what was wrong, and giving them an opportunity to solve matters. You should send it recorded delivery. (This will prove your attempt to resolve matters without the court).

After you have been through all that, then lodge your claim. As far as the practicalities of lodging a claim go, I won't be of much help, as Scots law is my thing!

Hope that helps, and happy to advise further if you do go ahead.

[kennatt]

sorry about your troubles,been down this route,a few times( Not with cars though).One of the main problems is obtaining satisfactory evidence from an expert witness IE JLH they usually don't want to get involved in county court.or criminal court cases.iT CAN TAKE UP VALUABLE TIME.and they are reluctant to slag off,other dealers.The best route would be through trading standards,they will prosecute on your behalf if they can ,again obtain the expert evidence.It is actualy a criminal offence for a DEALER to sell a motor vehicle which is unroad worthy(Dosn't apply to private sale)Trading standards may take it on .You need to gather as much evidence as you can,then go to the small claims court web site,there is a very simple guidence as to how to submit your claim. Very straightforwards and very inexpensive. You don't need a solicitor to do this,all that will do is cost YOU money even if you win or loose.First thing to do is serve notice on them (done via the county court) as to how much cash you want and see if they respond,the times I have done it they made me an offer to avoid going to court. If they lodge notice of a defence against the summons then you can either continue or if you feel that you have not got enough evidence just notify the county court that you have withdrawn your claim. Only cost a few pound then. You don't even need a solicitor to represent you at the county court,it is very informal,a sit round a table and just present your case as you see it. GOOD luck with it. Can you name the trader to prevent other owners from using him(Moderator )

[jonathon]

Actually we do not mind helping in cases of this sort. We have just done so, but although the customer won their case, both they,their solocitor and we feel that justice was not done. Infact the whole court case was mis managed by a judge unwilling to even read the wealth of information presented.
The problem that 'we' have is that often customers come to us to sort out jobs performed by other specialists, and in doing so our input will not be deemed as impartial as we are doing the rectification work and as such have a vested interest.(You can use independent assesers who offer impartial detailed documentation at a cost though)
What we are more than willing to do. is offer impartial reports on work performed by other specialists that owners are unhappy with. Before allowing ourselves to become involved in any work. The downside of this however is that court procedure takes ages especially if the defendant is aware of the delaying tactics.
I agree that most traders do not wish to 'slag off 'other traders but there is a line to be drawn and we view dangerous repairs and obvious bad work as crossing this line. It is also very difficult for a trader to make sure that all facts are correct and a true record of what actually happened
To present a case you must have all correspondence, estimates,invoices, satisfaction notices and full outlines of what was agreed (even verbal)
Its also well worth doing a 'Companies House' check (a few quid but worth it) just to see if the company is trading legally ie if it is a LTD company and is the VAT number relevant to 'that' company,not a previous incarnation like a 'trading as 'company, it has been known that some specialists (cannot say on here) have been rather devious with this very important side of presenting invoices. However this is always a good bargaining device in trying to resolve a case with out going to court. The VAT office are extremely interested in folk who do this trickery, and love to hand out large fines. I'm by no means saying that this is a point for Kate to watch but if others are in a similar position then do consider a check that who they say they are is who they are registered as.

[badfelafel]

You can check some details at Companies House for free: go to http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/ and click WebCheck on the right. Note that it is perfectly fine and legal not to be a limited company. If a company is limited, it must be registered with Companies House. Sole traders do not need to register with Companies House. Aside from that, registration for VAT (or being known at all to the Inland Revenue for tax payments) is a separate issue from Companies House registration, and may be indicative of dodgy tax dealings - can be interesting but not always indicative or helpful to your case.

It can be a problem that judges do not read all of the material. It is very important to remember that the the parties speaking must draw what they need to the attention of the decision maker. Don't expect the judge to take the initiative - they can, perhaps they should, but they might not.

If you present something that is questionable, then the judge may then look into it. If you don't present it, the judge may never know of it.

[jonathon]

I feel that the 'small claims' is flawed. One can act in total accordance with the courts requirements ie send in your claim to both the court and defendant at least a month before the hearing yet there is no guarantee that the Judge will have even seen this evidence before opening your session.Its vitally important that you can present your case simply and try not to read from notes ,the Judges don't seem to like this and in a recent case we know of the Judge actually admitted to being confused by the amount of information. If you can afford it use a solicitor, they usually are quite adept at presenting what needs to be heard. Also remember the odds are 50/50 on entering the court no matter how sure you are of your case.
I successfully took another trader to court some 10 years ago. I took 4 expert witnesses with me and won the case in the end. However we had to travel some 400 miles round trip 4 times before actually getting into court. No time, Judge upset by nearly being beaten up by previous defendant etc etc . In total having to travel plus pay for the witnesses on 4 occasions, meant that my 'award' fell several thousands short of my costs, to add insult to injury, the Judge said that as I was self employed that I could just work more to cover the court case costs. I was suitably unimpressed.

[badfelafel]

Small Claims can be flawed - no doubts about that, and if you can get representation from somebody with experience, then that's helpful. Try CAB / Law Clinics etc.

[MoggyTech]

I would try writing to the previous restorer giving as much clear and detailed information as possible, and requesting a refund for the work they did to a poor standard. Once you start getting to the court stage, it gets expensive and frustrating, and is probably not worth the hassle for the money involved. This does work both ways though, so a little bluffing will sometimes work in your favour.

[Kevin]

I just wondered if there was a time limit on this sort of thing, do you still have a case if its more than say a few years old or so, just wondering when you consider that some cars do very little mileages and the problems might not show up for some time.

[MoggyTech]

I just wondered if there was a time limit on this sort of thing, do you still have a case if its more than say a few years old or so, just wondering when you consider that some cars do very little mileages and the problems might not show up for some time.

A couple of restorers I know give a 5 year warranty against rusting through of new panels. The thing is, if it's a floor panel (which I beieve it is in this case from a previous thread) they could claim water ingress due to poor window/door seal etc. There may even be small print in any guarantee, about annual inspections or further rustproofing every year or so. The positive side of things is JLH being willing to offer assistance, and full marks to them for that. However, anyone who has been to small claims court will know that the law is an ass.

[jonathon]

I believe its ten years Kevin. As you rightly say, problems especially bodywork can lay hidden or not materialize for some time, so even if you sign a satisfaction note it is not a binding document. A good time to remind those who are about to commission any project especially bodywork to make sure that you have a photographic record of every stage of the works. In particular the welding stage , make sure that all faces of steel are galve or zinc sprayed before they are welded. I'd go so far as to say that you should insist that all of the black primer be removed, the panels photographed and then see the panels sprayed up in galve or zinc where you will no longer be able to get to apply a paint finish. It will cost more for proper preparation but you will reap the rewards in the future.

[Packedup]

I spent a shade under £300 earlier this year to have some MOT bodywork done. The car came back with a terrible filler job in the rear arches (I didn't mind the use of filler to keep the bill down, but it shouldn't have fingermarks in it for crying out loud!), patches slapped straight over the rot and unpainted on the inside, and several shades of green on the repairs, not one matching the car. Oh, and primer overspray, runs and reactions in the paint etc...

This was done by a (not Minor) specialist who pride themselves on their bodywork skills. In spending £300, I've knocked £500 off the value of the car...

However, the thought of putting time and effort into taking them to court to get most likely nowhere just doesn't appeal. Instead I'm letting justice be done by pointing out who did it to anyone who cares to ask. It doesn't get my car sorted out, but chances are it does more to penalise the workshop than an exhausting backwater town small claims court.

[badfelafel]

You have 6 years before you lose your right to sue under contract or tort (Limitation Act 1980, ss2 and 6 respectively).

[Pyoor_Kate]

1) How long ago was the work carried out?

Jan 2002 they finished.

2) Did you arrange for the work to be carried out, and did you pay for it?

Myself and my father (now deceased) arranged and my father paid (on my behalf).

3) Do you have any documents relating to the work - proof of payment / details of the work that should have been done?

Yeah, a fair bit. Not loads, but certainly it's clear what I asked for and what they said they were doing.

You should also ask yourself what it is you're looking for: do you want them to repair their bodge? What loss have you suffered? Is it actually dangerous?

I wouldn't let them within 50 feet of my car ever again, to be honest. Yes, it was structurally unsound and there's no real way to repair what they've done without dipping / stripping and lots of work. They took a fairly straight and not-too bodged 30 year old minor and basically made a hash of it.

As for what I want, some of the 7,000 quid back, please. That can go towards trying to sort out the mess they've made.

[Orkney]

Hmm been giving this a good thinking about.

Quite a few factors to consider. Legal action costs, principles cost, sometimes its better to walk away rather than flog a dead horse & spend the same as your original costs on legal fees which there is no certainty you would get back. That and companies invariably have deeper pockets than individuals.

Have tried putting myself in your position and what would I do.
Well a few years back when I had money I would have sued them.
First got thinking well hey that’s an awfully long time to be looking at taking action – would a beak or the law say the same?
Well not necessarily – e.g. if you had the roof repaired on your house by a ‘reputable’ company, some years later you get a velux installed by someone else and that company find serious defects in the original installation by reputable company well you’ve got great grounds to seek recompense to have the work redone to the standard you originally contracted.
So if I had the money I’d run it by my English solicitor who happens to be a litigation specialist and see what his initial reaction might be and if positive an estimate of the costs involved.

OK so don’t have money now so couldn’t but would make sure I did everything possible to let the world know exactly what had happened – after all cant get done for libel or slander if your telling the truth and can prove so.
Of course there are other ways to go down the free route.
Possibly trading standards.
Possibly your motoring organization – if you’re a standing member of AA/RAC e.g. they offer free legal advice & services.
Possibly likewise your car insurer, many of whom offer legal services & protection – all depends on the company and policy of course but always worth looking at the fine print of the policy (and possibly the policy that stood the time the work was done).
Check out the trader – are they members of any associations etc to whom you might be able to complain?

Sorry cant be of more help Kate, really do sympathise with your predicament

[aupickup]

WELL IF IT WAS ME AND 20 YEARS YOUNGER I WOULD CONFRONT THEM AND DEMAND THEY DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT, IF NOT THEN WELL ......................................

[Pyoor_Kate]

Well, I think my first thing to do is get some legal advice (Cheers Kevin), and most likely to write to them and see if they're willing to give me some of the 7,000 back.

If not, then we may go small claims court route... I'll keep folks updated.

[bigginger]

G'luck
a

[Gareth]

Good luck with it Kate - remember that if you send ANYTHING to them, you must keep copies and send the documents Recorded Delivery.