Self Judging

[Gollum]

Hi all.
I'm fairly new to Minors but not to classic cars having owned MGs, Wolseleys and Rovers previously. I've recently purchased a 1970 saloon which I am slowly recommissioning for daily use.
I've attended a few events this year, the latest of which was the South Wales branch event last weekend. I attended this event as a visitor as I'm keen to look at other Minors and speak to owners about their cars to learn how I can improve my own car. I also take a keen interest in the cars that win awards as these are generally those which are in the best condition and of a standard which gives me something to aspire to with my own car.
So on to the reason for my post and apologies if this has been discussed previously. At the South Wales rally, owners were asked to judge the other cars which had entered the event (self-judging). Owners were also asked to judge the non-Morris classics which also attended the event. The criteria was to judge the cars on overall condition including the engine bay.
I was particularly surprised at the result of the Traveller class. There were two Travellers there (a white one and a blue one for anyone else that attended) which in my opinion, would win the class as they were both in oustanding condition. However, to my surprise another car which was clearly not of the same standard of the other two (not wishing to disrespect the owner), took the award. I was reliablely informed afterwards that the owner was a member of the South Wales branch as was the owner of the car which won the car of the show. I believe that the car of the show was judged idependently, although (again without disrespecting the owner) in my opinion, was not in as good condition as some of the other cars at the event.
Whilst I personally prefer the self-judging method of awarding prizes, I was particularly puzzled as to the result of the Traveller class. I appreciate that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is about an individuals opinion, but I cannot believe that the car that won the Traveller class would have received more votes than the other two cars if people were genuinely judging cars on their condition.
Is this a case of keeping some of the awards "in house" so to speak? (and before anyone shouts, I am not levelling an accusation towards the South Wales branch) or is it a case of voting for your fellow branch members car irrespective of it's condition?
I would be interested to gain other opinions on how this can happen, particularly in a self-judging event where the best car usually wins the class given that there are a lot of different people judging the cars. I couldn't help feeling sorry for the owners of the two lovely Travellers who had clearly spent a lot of time preparing their cars to a superb standard as one of them clearly deserved to win the award.
I also noticed was that there was no award given to the non-Morris cars, even though owners were asked to judge their favourite. I felt this was a shame as the owners of these cars supported the event and made it all the more interesting so it would have been nice to give award to the best non-Morris.
That said, I did enjoy the event, met a lot of nice people and learnt lots more about Minors!

[chrisryder]

it's always a tricky subject. i know exactly what you mean about branch members getting votes for who they are rather than their car's condition.

it's the only way i get prizes

sometimes the 'car of the show' is the one with the most votes. which can be an awkward thing as quite often we have problems whereby only 2 cars are in a class. one great, and one rotten. the great one gets all the votes as it's a pretty easy decission to make. this car is then deemed as the best in show, as it got the most votes. but that's just because nobody would vote for the rotten one!

different branches have different ways of doing it, it's not an outlined procedure anywhere. it was decided in our branch to avoid the situation i just mentioned by having a 'best in show' category for people to vote for themselves.

the mmoc national rally is judged by a panel of judges, so the problems we've both mentioned are elliminated.

the only way you can hope to win at a branch rally is to become a well known member of said branch you won't be guaranteed to win your class even if you have the best car. it's an unfortunate fact of life.

the alternative is for branch rallys to be judged by a panel of judges. but even then, the judges will likely be from that branch and be more swayed towards voting for branch members. it may not even be done deliberately, but a subconcsious decission.

or you can try to educate the voters, and emplore them to vote honestly without considering whose car it is.

also, welcome to the forum. we've got Wolseleys ourself

[bmcecosse]

It's always the way with the 'self judging' shows...... For a used tenner I'll vote for your car any day!!
It's all such a farce - just enjoy the show and don't get involved with any 'prizes' -they are obviously meaningless. Some folk even tow their show cars to events on trailers in order to win 'prizes' - they must feel very proud of themselves Especially where they have paid someone else to restore the car - or bought it in that restored condition.
But I am in complete awe of the fantastic work many proud owners do on their own cars - they are the ones who deserve the awards.
Some shows I attend let the paying Public do the judging - not the Classic Car owners. A much better system I believe.

[mike.perry]

Organising branches should in theory have their cars in a separate class or at least not vote for their own cars. Some branches have fun judging, shiny hubcaps etc.It should not be take too seriously until you get on the concours ladder.
2009 Southern Regional 1st in Class
2009 National Rally 1st in Class

[MColes]

Well I was there are the show on Sunday and I'm a member of the South Wales Branch. I thought the traveller that won the award for the best traveller was just as good as the others and deserved the award. That's not me being biased as a fellow branch member as that's not the traveller I voted for! Nor did I vote for any other branch vehicles!

I can tell you as the person that counted the votes on the day that the number of votes were close between a lot of the vehicles there, there was no underhanded goings on I can tell you.

Here comes the bombshell... It was I that won the best in show!

My car didn't get a single vote in the results from the self judging, nor did I expect it to!

The best in show was picked by the Deputy Lady Mayoress and there were apparently a number of reasons she liked my car I was told. Mainly because of its condition considering it's used everyday and unlike most cars that attended isn't a 'garage queen'! She was also particularly impressed with the fact that I'm the Registrar for the Young Member's Register and the work I'm doing promoting the cars to the younger generation.

In regards to the award for the best non-minor, don't worry they haven't been forgotten, a prize is on its way to the owner

[LouiseM]

Welcome to the messageboard Gollum

I appreciate that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is about an individuals opinion, but I cannot believe that the car that won the Traveller class would have received more votes than the other two cars if people were genuinely judging cars on their condition.

I have found over the years that most self-judging voting forms don't actually specify a particular criteria that people should stick to when judging. There's usually just reference to various types of Minor and space to cast your vote rather than a printed list of strict guidelines that people must follow when judging vehicles. So it doesn't automatically follow that all voters are judging cars solely on their condition. Personally, I tend to vote for the cars that I like best which aren't always the cars in the best condition. I quite frequently vote for a car which has a bit of 'character' and seems well used over one that it is in great condition and highly polished. Although I don't personally enter my car for judging if I did I wouldn't take the results of self-judging too seriously, especially if there was no specific judging criteria in place, as it would just be 'pot luck' whether your car won a prize or not.

the only way you can hope to win at a branch rally is to become a well known member of said branch

I've won just one prize in over 20 years of Minor ownership and that was at a branch rally a couple of years ago. I wasn't a member of the branch though, and didn't know any of the branch members either. Mind you, the prize was for "The car most people wanted to go home in" so I have no idea what that means, or what the judging criteria was!

[ASL642]

I won Best Car In Show at the Rally .....because the Judge (the owner of the Stately home we were holding the Rally at) used to "have one just like it"! (My Traveller)

[8009STEVE]

Our Trav has won

3rd in class at a local show
and
Most confused Traveller

When we went to Switzerland with him, We won

Furthest travelled to the Rally

Not bad for an everyday car in 4 years

[DAVIDMCCULLOUGH]

In the Northern Ireland Branch we stopped self judging as one year a person was going round asking people to return the slips and if you hadnt filled it in she collected it anyway and added her own number........... Judging always seems to end up in arguments and people getting upset.

The new system we have in place is for attendance ( rather like a Sunday school prize!), you get points for every event you attend and on club night an extra point for turning up in your minor Ok for those of us who use them everyday! Once you have won the shield you cannot win it again therefore everybody gets a chance to have it.

I once won 3rd place with my white traveller at a Scottish event, I was very pleased as it was unexpected. I heard that at the next branch meeting there had been 'words' as a non branch member had been given an award. I was even more pleased when I won 2nd best series 11 traveller at last year national, speaking of which I really must clean it for this years

[Judge]

I think it deserves an award for 'best fully laden hill climb' as well

[Neil MG]

I think it deserves an award for 'best fully laden hill climb' as well

And without a driver!

[dalebrignall]

it was the flowers on the roof rack that did it louise

[LouiseM]

In that case I'll have to try the "flowers on the roof rack" trick more often Dale. A couple of hanging baskets and I'll be in the running for concours!

[welshrat]

I was also at the show and completed the self judge form, to be honest I voted for the motors that appealed to me, did not have a clue who the club members were. Both the traveller and convertable than won had my vote. Seen the process as a bit of fun and an opportunity to have a good look at the other minors/non minors. Did not come across anyone who was fretting about winning best vehicle, just a jolly good get together.

[Gollum]

It would seem that there is a lot of negative feeling about the awarding of prizes judging by the responses. Personally I'm not bothered either way as I attend events as part of my hobby and to meet fellow enthusiasts. But some of the antics described are nothing short of child like!! Quite funny and dare I say desperate!
Taking Matt's point about his car winning car of the show, I have found that this type of award is not always given to the car in the best condition but one which appeals most to the person judging it for various reasons. I think that is quite nice and often rewards those whose car works for living and who put in a lot of hard work within club circles.
I guess though if you do take part in self-judging then to be fair to everyone, you ought to judge the cars in line with required criteria. At the South Wales rally this was based on the car which was in the best condition, not which car appealed to you for whatever reason, hence why I was surprised at the result.
I will continue enjoy my car for what it is and the opportunity it gives to meet like-minded folk at various events.

[badger]

I was there too, and I'm a memeber of the South Wales club, but I didn't win anything!

I thought the judging process was a fairly relaxed affair with everyone asked to pick a car of each model from the cars on display, that they considered to be the best. If it was a concours event I think theTrafalgar Trav would have won, as it was a fantastic testament to its owners attention to detail, but not everybody would see it as their favourite car, as some like a more 'lived in' look. Had we been asked for most unusual colour or most children on board, even I might have won! I didn't think anyone on the day was too concerned about whether they won a prize or not as most seemed too busy having a good day out. It was a 'rally' and not a 'show' after all.

I think Matt wooed the Lady Mayoress with his new fangled stereo that he had mounted in the boot, you know what these youngsters are like!


Can we have a class for 'Best yucky green colour' or who gets asked the most times 'Is that the original colour' next year?

[ASL642]

It's not "yucky" it's "period"

[welshrat]

I think Matt wooed the Lady Mayoress with his new fangled stereo that he had mounted in the boot, you know what these youngsters are like!

Very impressed by Matt's sound system, amazing how small and compact things are these days. The CD's he had were rather large though.

[santadawes]

Hi Everybody. After a week of rest I am back and noticed that this post has upset certain people. The "Self Judging" was not intended to upset, misslead or offer biase to our own branch member vehicles.

I too have been to many classic car events where the judging of vehicles by both experianced judges and the general public. I have stood around waiting to see if my own car would be a winner and sometimes felt a little deflated when others had won.

Matthews car was picked by the Deputy Lord Mayor. I gave her a short brief about what she would consider "Her personal favourite car of the day" ie, it didn't have to be the best shiniest, most cleanest, or even the most expensive. She chose Matthews because of all the things Matthew decribed in the above post. As for the other vehicles being self judged. All owners who attended the rally were given a brown envellope containing their self judging form. The form states that you were asked to judge other vehicles on "your own merits" It didn't have to be in concorse condition although we had a few really nice looking ones that might had made it to that class. As Matthew said the forms wetre counted by myself and Matthew. Not everybody took up the judging and some came very close to winning. It was the vehicle with the most votes that was nominated best in that class.

Apart from the this feedback I have had only praise for a great fun day out and thank you all for attending our branch rally. This event was organised entirley by myself and is hoped that we can do another one next year.

Raymond.

[Dean]

I'm gutted... I got second place at Hartlebury Castle the other weekend in the MM/series 2 catagory by self judging. I was a bit gobsmacked actually... the kids loved it though.