4-Life coolant

[RogerRust]

Has anyone got on any experience of this?

http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct. ... de=080.861

I'm tempted by the 180 degree C boiling point and low evaporative losses.

[bmcecosse]

180 degrees? The engine will be seized solid long before that - and since the cooling system is sealed - there can be NO 'evaporative' losses. Don't waste your money......

[dalebrignall]

there is another similar product called evans coolant works out at £80 v expensive

[autolycus]

This stuff has been discussed at some length on another classic car forum I read. The knowledgable folk seemed to agree that its additives may be incompatible with older engines, radiators, gaskets, seals, and sealing compounds, just as modern OAT antifreezes are. The makers fail to mention its specific enthalpy (heat capacity), but it's been suggested that it's much lower than a water/ethylene glycol conventional antifreeze mixture. So for a given flow rate and energy input, its temperature will rise further. Do you want your engine to run any hotter? How will the lube oil perform at the higher temperatures?

You also have to start with a flushed, descaled, and throroughly dried engine, and be certain that no-one will ever add any water at all to it, so you'll have to carry a couple of cans around with you for emergency topup. And since it's much more expensive, you might not like the notion that if you have to change a bottom hose, say, you'll want to try to catch every drop that's sprayed all over the underneath of the engine compartment when you take the old hose off.

Conventional, inorganic additive antifreeze for me, please, in any classic.

Kevin

[les]

This oat antifreeze business of not being suitable for older engines puzzles me, what materials have old engines got that are different in modern ones? I'd have thought gaskets and oil seals were all using the same material, and hoses. What am I missing?

[autolycus]

According to a person who investigated this to pursue a claim for the cost of rebuilding his 7.3 litre V12, it attacks certain rubbers, silicones, and solders. He won his claim against a major retailer, and many makers of OAT antifreezes now warn that it's not suitable for older engines. So even those of us without V12 wet-liner engines may be better off avoiding it. YMMV.

Kevin

[EvansCoolants]

Good afternoon MMOC members,
Would it be OK if I were to reply in detail to the below observations and comments. I appreciate this is a forum and as such should not be used by companies to promote their products, but feel it would be useful to provide detailed technical answers to the questions and issues raised.
Alternatively I would be more than pleased to make a presentation to MMOC and respond to questions and queries you may have.
Kind regards,
Steve Hickson - Evans Cooling Systems
Tel. 01792 572299

[les]

Fine by me, always interested in information, especially if factual.

[simmitc]

Steve, so far as I am concerned, please do put forward some facts. I looked at the product and discounted it for some of the reasons discussed above. i like to think that I made an informed decision, but am always prepared to learn more. Thanks also for taking the trouble to ask.

[EvansCoolants]

Good morning MMOC members,

Comparing Evans Waterless Engine Coolants (WEC) with Water-Antifreeze mixtures

Thank you to Lez, Simmitc and the site moderator for allowing me (obo Evans) to put forward this response to previous comments. I shall endeavour to focus on the technical information and avoid gratuitous sales spiel.......However, occasionally it will be pertinent to qualify some info with statements confirming that Evans “does what it says on the tin”.

Physical comparison;
Water is the best heat transfer fluid known, provided it is operating within its physical limits, and Evans WEC would not be the 1st choice for a cooling system operating below 85 Deg C. However, engine cooling systems regularly exceed 100 Deg C and at these temperatures water changes state from a liquid to a gas. The Boiling Point of water can be raised to 103 Deg C by adding 50% antifreeze and a further 20 Deg C by applying 1 Bar (14.5 PSI) pressure via a spring loaded cap. Surprisingly, for the reasons mentioned below, these additional measures often fail to prevent localised boiling and steam vapour escaping from solution.

1. Wherever Eddy currents are formed, at the impeller tips and where the fluid rapidly changes direction inside the block, pressure drops result.
2. Hot spots are often present adjacent to the combustion zone and these can lead to film boiling. NB. When film boiling occurs the steam vapour prevents liquid reaching the hot metal surfaces, which perpetuates overheating, leading to poor combustion (pinking), head warping and head gasket failure, liner and cooling pump erosion from pitting and occasionally piston seizure.

Subsequently water based cooling fluids often exhibit phase change rather than hydraulic characteristics.

Clearly overheating only affects a small percentage of (all) engines at any one time, but our experience is that vintage, classic and performance cars and heavy duty diesels suffer more than most. In older engines this is often due to a partial coating of rust and/or grime on the cooling surfaces within the radiator and engine block, which drastically and negatively affects heat transfer efficiency.

Evans WEC have a very low vapour pressure and boil above 180 Deg C, at atmospheric pressure. This does not mean the engine has to run at 180 Deg C, rather it eliminates the problems associated to steam vapour being released inside an engine as detailed above. Another major advantage associated to a high boiling point, is that little or no vapour pressure is generated within the cooling system. So low in fact that it would be possible to drive from Lands End to John o’Groats non-stop (should you feel so inclined!) and upon arrival remove the pressure cap with no risk of scalding from boiling hot liquid or vapour.

When Evans WEC are installed it is normal to see a 3 - 5 Deg C increase in cooling system temperature and 0 – 5 Deg C increase in lube oil temp. Neither increase will have a detrimental or dangerous affect on an engine. In fact over the last ten years 400,000+ car engines have been successfully converted to Evans WEC in the USA, China, UK and Europe and we can confirm the only affects have been positive ones.

Chemical comparison
Water is cheap and readily available, but it is also the root cause of corrosion whenever it is used in a cooling or heating system. The two main reasons being;
1. Water contains dissolved oxygen, the percentage of which varies according to temperature. At 95 Deg C most oxygen is driven off, but the water will naturally re-oxygenate as it cools. Oxygen + water + metal = metal oxides, aka rust.
2. Water + dissolved solids, such as inhibitors, hardness salts and other sediments = an electrolyte that will convey a current. Thus facilitating galvanic corrosion, where metals of different nobility sacrifice themselves. This leads to pitting corrosion.
The anti-corrosion additives found in standard antifreeze products are there to counteract the problems caused by water corrosion and also to counteract the acidity of the antifreeze as it degrades.....due partially to the oxygen in the water! Inhibitor technology has improved over the years, but even a long-life antifreeze-coolant needs replenishing every 5 years.

Note on Antifreeze-Coolant Inhibitors.
Contemporary long-life coolants mostly contain Organic Acid Technology (OAT) inhibitors, which are well proven with the metals found in modern engines. They are not so good with engines built using older materials or where large amounts of cast iron are used. The majority of heavy duty diesel engines use a blend of OAT and Nitrite, which are often referred to as HOAT or NOAT (H = Hybrid and N = Nitrite). In all cases the inhibitors are primarily there to counteract the corrosive activity of oxygen and solids laden water.

Evans WEC do not contain water and subsequently there is no dissolved oxygen to generate rust or degrade the formulation. Furthermore they are non-conductive and do not generate or carry electrical currents. The waterless corrosion inhibitors that are blended with the base formulation ensure that Evans WEC provide true 4Life protection for every engine. E.g. Joe Umstead’s Freightliner has covered >1,000,000 miles using Evans Heavy Duty WEC.

Cost Vs. Overall saving
Evans WEC eliminate all of the problems associated to water based coolants and represent a radical advance in engine cooling technology. I would expect most classic car owners have at some time experienced overheating, burst hoses and/or corrosion leading to breakdown and repair costs. E.g. a new radiator, water-pump etc. Owners lavish cash and time on paint-work, polish, under sealing and a good quality oil but because it remains unseen the cooling system is often over looked until failure and/or breakdown occurs. Yes, Evans WEC are more expensive than traditional coolants but they represent good value for money and will likely save all convertee’s significant sums over the years, whilst preserving your classic for the future generations to enjoy.

My apologies for rattling on, but it is a product I am passionate about and there is still a lot more I could say. If anyone would like to know more then please give me or one of my colleagues a call on 01792 572299.

Thanks for taking the time to read this far.

Cheers,
Steve Hickson
Evans Cooling Systems