VIN issue

[Jamesjmercer]

I have owned my (suposedly) 1958 convertible for five years. It was purchased as a factory orginal. It has a BMI Heritage Trust Certificate confirming its identitity. The reg no is not original, but I have had no reason to doubt its provenance, until now. A fellow enthusiast recently spotted the bulkhead VIN number and gently suggested that the numbers shown were not quite to the exptected font. Further invetigation now reveals a VIN number to have been superimposed, very skilfully, over the orginal. It has been possible to peal of a thin strip of metal with the embossed superimposed VIN. The orginal VIN has been obliterated. The VIN number on the chasis/VIN plate conforms to the superimposed number, as does all the supporting documentation, including the Heritage Cert.

All this is ok, I guess, whilst I own the vehicle, but what happens when I want to sell it on?

My suspicion is now that this is a convincingly converted saloon. When the conversion was done I have no idea. Further checks show windscreen glass and wiper motor to date from 1959. I do not think the previous owner set out to decieve when I made the purchase. I myself would have sold it on in good faith.

Any thoughts as to where I might go with this gratefully received!

J

[bmcecosse]

Did you buy it from a restoration company - or in a private purchase? Obviously from the windows - it is indeed a 1959 car....... Does the 'real' chassis number indicate a 2 door saloon - or a convertible?

[Jamesjmercer]

It was a private purchase.

The Vin/Chassis plate indicates a convertible (FCJ/ prefix). The plate is 'weathered' and does not appear to be a recent replacement.

Original stamped VIN unreadable as is plate on n/s engine bay floor.

[POMMReg]

Would you pm the vin number along with the body nos!

O/s footwell vin 'stamping' didn't start until mid '65 - therefore will be on b/head.

Mr.Buzbybee

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Whoever did this may have owned/known of/seen a beyond-repair convertible, copied the chassis nos and reg plate (hence your non-original reg. no.) and stuck them on a converted 2-dr which long since ceased to exist on paper since the swapping of numbers.

This is perfectly plausible. Say the scrap convertible was just a heap of rust in a field, long dumped. Someone spots it and applies for a V5, then converts a 2-dr, swaps the numbers and hey-ho, a 'genuine' convertible.

Yes, you've been duped, but it might not pose any legal problem unless there was theft/cloning involved at some point in the past. You will probably have great trouble in finding a buyer for this car.

[POMMReg]

If the NMP plate looks original, the 1st (raised) set of nos will reveal all.

Concentrate on the last 3 digits & I'll check my book!

Convertables were MAT/3's in '59!

Shum mishtack shorely!?

[LouiseM]

I think before automatically assuming the worse or jumping to conclusions you need to check a few things first. Someone might try to change the identity of a Minor by changing the chassis number but there are a number of ways to identify a converted saloon from a genuine convertible and also a '58 from a '59 car which the average 'car ringer' wouldn't be aware of.

Windscreen glass & wiper motors get replaced so shouldn't be used as an accurate way of dating a vehicle. The heritage certificate contains a lot of different information such as key numbers, engine number, trim colour etc. Do these match up with your vehicle?

Why are you now thinking that it is a converted saloon? From Sept '58 courtesy light switches were fitted, except in convertibles. When you open the doors can you see any courtesy light switches?

From March '59 the horn push moved to the centre of the steering wheel. Where is your horn push?

What type of chassis plate do you have? This type (‘52 to mid ‘58):

[frame][/frame]

Or this type (from mid ‘58): [frame][/frame]


My VIN number is hardly readable and this has caused problems at MOT time - it's possible that someone re-stamped the original VIN number onto the chassis plate because the original number had worn away.

Convertables were MAT/3's in '59!

Yes, this identification system was introduced from mid '58 so an early '58 convertible would have an FC prefix.

James - If you want me to do a bit more 'digging' send me the chassis number via pm.

[whyperion]

A safe conversion /original should have the extra strengthening plates mostly around the A post under the kick plates , are they in place. (Check the conversion kit suppliers as I cannot recall exactly where they should go )

[smithskids]

Wern't the support pillars on the B posts spot welded on to the pillar and floor, if yours are welded its a dead giveaway. Keep digging.

[Jamesjmercer]

I am now pretty sure that the vehicle is a skillfully 'converted' convertible. She's a sound and atractive vehicle and runs exceptionally well but is not quite what I thought she was. The (disputed) VIN dates the vehicle to 1958. 'Digging' suggests she is probably a late 60/early 61 saloon.
I can live with that. My main problem remains the fraudulaent VIN. I have requested a V888 search by the DVLA and have also contacted Gaydon. I await their responses.

Incidently, a well known Morris Minor restorers has recently given her a thorough inspection to explore options for restoration. They did not suggest anything was amiss with her identity, which makes me feel slightly less foolish!

[whyperion]

Restorers probably would be less concerned with identity in fairness to them ( as long as the person whom presents the vehicle to them is paying the bill ) They are correctly viewing the car ( indeed any car ) as a kit of parts , the objective being to ensure that it is in a safe and roadworthy condition and the extent of work required to ensure that it is ,along with suitable for the presenters requirements ( fast car , show car , every day usable vehicle , whatever).

[Jamesjmercer]

Yes, re VIN I agree. In terms of 'identity' I meant factory/converted convertible. My premise that it was a factory convertible was not challenged.

[POMMReg]

The removal of the b/head body number "strip" should ALWAYS ring alarm bells on convertables. Thankfully,whoever carried out the conversion neglected to also remove the remains of the NMP plate confirming it as a 60/1 2dr.

The "FCx" & "MAT" screw on chassis plates do not prove the vehicle is a Convertable!!

Chris
Minor Number Cruncher
pommreg@gmail.com

[Jamesjmercer]

The story continues...

Does anyone know if it is possible to have a stab at finding a VIN via engine and key numbers?

Is such a data search possible?

If so, where?

Thanks

[POMMReg]

I'm sure I quoted you an approx chassis range for this(?)

Will be between 86xxxx-92xxxx

Chris

[Jamesjmercer]

Chris

Thanks for this.

Is there any way I can pin down the exact original VIN for the vehicle from the info I have?

Viz:

NMP No: Z24706 (4 is an educated guess)

Key No: FP689 (no gaurantee this is original of course)

Engine No: 9MUH490060 (again, no guarantee of originality)

Original colour - Smoke Grey (Green since 2003)

Window glass and wiper motor dated 1959

It would help in potential negotiations with DVLA to be as precise as I can be.

Happy New Year

James[frame][/frame][frame][img]

[POMMReg]

James

Referred to the book;

Z28706 = early '61 (non LBM) 2dr with 9M-U-H 490xxx engine

Chassis range; M/A2S3 873xxx-875xxx

Body number range; 349xxx-354xxx

ANY digits of the "original" chassis number legible?

If I had the exact body number, rather than just the code, I could be of help.

Probably best visiting Gaydon and searching through their "BME" production books, key numbers are recorded too.

Contact Lou Rocke, as she's visited Gaydon

Chris

[Jamesjmercer]

Chris

Thanks again.

I attach a photo which shows the mess I've made of the bulkhead trying to get to the original VIN (curled metal to the right is the 'skin ovelay' with superimposed VIN 665859). Photo shows numbers exposed below, which have themselves been distorted by the over-punching of the new numbers, perhaps an original first attempt to modify the VIN. *6*3** possibly surviving - although '*6' is also part of the presumed fraudulant VIN sequence...

James

[POMMReg]

James,

What about the chassis numbers stamped directly into the engine bay bulkhead - should be 6 digits, no prefixes?!

If there's a chance the 9MH isn't original, then M/A2S3 86**3* would make sense - in this case you'd be looking at body numbers in the 347xxx-350xxx range.

Chris

[Jamesjmercer]

Chris

Here's the photo of the exposed original VIN that failed to attach last time...[frame][/frame]