Adderley Park Traveller's

[POMMReg]

Have begun a database for these neglected beasties....so could I ask those owning one contact me on minorlcvrecords@gmail.com stating the following;

Chassis number(whether "J" or "F" suffixed)
Regn number(optional)
Dealer(if known)
Body number (all are Z36054 prefixed)
Engine number(10V/189E)
G/box & R/axle number(if known)
Original colour
Key number(FS 9xx)
Ign (Neiman)
Date on electrics
Any other information unique to the vehicle to aid identification if stolen or cloned.

I appreciate this is a BIG challenge, however, NO records survive, the best that we can do to try to remedy this problem is compose a database to
record details from survivors...this is how the AddPk 700 LCV blunder was uncovered.
It MAY seem to some of you this is a pointless task, but 40 years of doing NOTHING hasn't worked...
All help/information greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

[Mark Wilson]

Hi Chris. You've already had the basic info on mine, but I'll collect all I can and send it to your minorlcvrecords email address in the next couple of days. I presume you will want the numbers for the engine etc as currently fitted (not the allegedly originals which are still here somewhere....)

Given the number of sales of ID documentation appearing on ebay I strongly support your efforts to create this resource. Thanks and good luck!

Mark

[Blaketon]

My details have just been sent to you.

[POMMReg]

My details have just been sent to you.

Thanks

[POMMReg]

Receiving a fair few replies here, amazingly!!

Main things we want to know are;

Chassis nos
Union or Neiman ign
Green or Black engine & Number
Metal or Plastic air filter cover

Your support greatly appreciated!!

[pgp001]

Hi

Do you mind if I ask a potentially daft question ?

I have been told by a few people that the late Adderley Park travellers were not built to the same standards and that both the woodwork and the metal used was poorer quality. And they tend to rot quicker than the earlier models.
Is this true or just an old wives tale ?

I am looking to buy my first traveller next spring all being well, and I have been advised to try and find a good 1967 or 68 model rather than say a 1970 or 71.

Thanks
Phil

[IaininTenbury]

Only constructional difference I can think of on later travellers, is the laminated rear pillar (when did they start?), but the majority will have had new wood by now and any originals still about either need replacing or have survived well and need preserving. Body shells will be identical...

[Mark Wilson]

Mine was registered April 71, but from the chassis number probably rolled off the line in late 1970. The wood, which I've now replaced, was possibly original as it had the metal brackets at the front top corners which I believe are usually discarded in replacement. The pillars were solid, not laminated, and it wasn't as bad as some. The metal had gone in most of the usual places, but no worse than many of all ages seen on resto threads on here.

[POMMReg]

Oooops, forgot about the Laminated pillar!

Thanks to members, a few interesting things uncovered on this....

Months/Chassis number ranges when the "J" - the BMC code for AddPk - suffix was used, this being done at Cowley (chassis no. & J same size)
Yet to confirm intro of the BLMC "F", done at AddPk (F same size as MAW5D)
Approximate chassis number for introduction of Neiman steering lock (B) mid 219xxx's
Ditto with black engines (B) 220xxx

As to the grade of steel, could we compare this with the last 2/4drs as all came from NMP?
I wouldn't write off an AddPk Minor, lot to do with what life its led; for example, 2 1970 mailvans, 1 operated in Welshpool, Salop & lasted exactly 6yrs (taxed 5/71, flintstone 5/77), the other, based in London & when bought 1/85, solid as anything.

[TFM150K]

As far as quality of steel was concerned, I can remember a very respected restorer telling me years ago that up to 1963 the British motor industry had used (as he put it) "Virgin Steel" - i.e. new, freshly smelted steel - for all structural and body panels - from 1964 there was a percentage of "recycled" steel in the mix which he contended would lead to faster deterioration - i.e. rusting. The same source contended that the reason that panels from the Asian subcontinent had a reputation for rapid deterioration was that they contained a large percentage of recycled marine steel (remember those pictures of ships being beached and cut up by hand?) . His theories were very believable, and he said he would never purchase a car that was made after 1963 and that he would only use British panels or sheet steel. He was restoring top-of-the-market cars, many of which would fetch seven-figure prices these days.

He might, of course, have been talking a load of twaddle. I fell for it though.

Dave

[ManyMinors]

I would think that laminated rear pillars started before the Traveller production moved to Adderley Park. I had a 1968"F" registered Traveller and that was certainly built with laminated pillars. I would agree that Adderley Park Travellers were built to a less good standard than Cowley built cars but I think there was a decline in the build quality of all British Leyland models. Having worked for a BL dealer I used to see the cars from new. Buyers would often be loyal to a certain model of car and own a succession of them - and we did too - so it was plain to see the slow dropping of standards. The Adderley Park Travellers might have started with the identical bodyshells but these were probably not painted the same way. Was the famous "rotodip" process used where the body was submerged in a vat of paint and rotated as at the Cowley Works? Certainly I recall from sanding these cars down, that the undercoats were not the same and the paint was not as thick. Adderley Park Travellers were more inclined to rust along the cab roof gutters for example and the paint finish was poor. I would agree that the condition of cars now - all these years later - is more to do with their treatment and I would simply purchase a car on its general condition. Some people, myself included, are not so keen on the later colours either but that is a personal thing. If you're looking for a Traveller, lokk at several and just buy the best you can find for the price. That is the best advice.

[Mark Wilson]

I've no expertise whatsoever in metallurgy, but I have observed steel in a Sheffield foundry at over 1000 degrees C, and I wouldn't have thought that any corrosion or contamination brought in with the recycled material would survive to have any significant effect!

According to Wikipedia "For a short time in 1968, the thickness of the steel used in the bonnet and doors was decreased from 1.2 mm to 1.0 mm to act as a form of crumple zone, but as the wings continued to be made of 1.4 mm mild steel, the modification was pointless and ineffectual and was reversed in 1969 as it increased passenger compartment crush in collisions. If correct, which Wikipedia of course always is, the Adderley Park Travellers were actually of thicker steel than their immediate predecessors.

[IaininTenbury]

I'd take that wikepedia comment with a big pinch of road salt....
Can't imagine any wings being pressed out of 1.4mm steel - be very difficult on such a deep draw pressing. All seem to be around 1mm, unless a new pattern wing which are noticeably thinner - more 0.8mm or 22g...

[IaininTenbury]

As far as quality of steel was concerned, I can remember a very respected restorer telling me years ago that up to 1963 the British motor industry had used (as he put it) "Virgin Steel" - i.e. new, freshly smelted steel - for all structural and body panels - from 1964 there was a percentage of "recycled" steel in the mix which he contended would lead to faster deterioration - i.e. rusting. The same source contended that the reason that panels from the Asian subcontinent had a reputation for rapid deterioration was that they contained a large percentage of recycled marine steel (remember those pictures of ships being beached and cut up by hand?) . His theories were very believable, and he said he would never purchase a car that was made after 1963 and that he would only use British panels or sheet steel. He was restoring top-of-the-market cars, many of which would fetch seven-figure prices these days.

He might, of course, have been talking a load of twaddle. I fell for it though.

Dave

I'd tend to agree that earlier cars often tend to be in a better state than later ones, and that mid sixties onwards there can be some real rotten apples about, and some amazing survivors from the 50s... (I just like pre '64 Minors as having more period charm than the later ones but that's just me). I've heard the theory about steel before and it sounds pretty believable, and ties up with my own experience restoring Minors. I'd doubt if the factory change to Adderley Park made a lot of difference but its a fair point about the painting I suppose. But then 50 years on, its really down to the survival and life of an individual car.

[Mark Wilson]

Was the famous "rotodip" process used where the body was submerged in a vat of paint and rotated as at the Cowley Works?

After a bit of idle Googling I've found that two Rotodip plants were installed at Cowley, two at Longbridge, one in Sydney, two at Fisher and Ludlow and one at Nuffield Metal products. None at Adderley Park, but as the bodies were produced at NMP (my Adderley Park Trav has an NMP plate) quite possible that the bodies were rotodipped there. I've found a thin brown coating on the inside of previously unmolested rear chassis members which seems to have been applied after welding, which I assumed was from the dipping process. Can't say it worked particularly well, but the Cowley built 57 four door I had nearly fifty years ago rotted far faster!

[Mark Wilson]

Getting a bit obsessive on this topic now, but my working life has involved a degree of statistical analysis. Taking figures from the How Many Left website and from Ray Newell's "Morris Minor Traveller" book I have calculated that from 1960 (the earliest figures to hand) to mid 1969 there were 150,161 Travellers constructed, with 745 survivors (including SORN), making a survival rate of 0.49%. For the Adderley Park Travellers the figures are 18,116 built and 188 survivors, so a survival rate of 1.03%, or twice the rate for the Cowley cars. These are UK survival figures only and the Adderley Park numbers are a bit less accurate, but after making allowances there is clearly no evidence for the AP cars being significantly worse than earlier ones. They are newer, of course, but with the newest being 46 years old that will have only a marginal effect.

[pgp001]

Thanks for all your replies guys, it seems there is no point getting too hung up about this when I start seriously looking for a traveller next spring.
I will take each one on its own merits.
I am thinking that for me personally I might buy a fully restored (and documented) one from Traveller Timbers. It might cost a bit more but it should be a good solid start.

Phil

[POMMReg]

Have 120odd listed thus far, only 15 with body & engine numbers.

The OTHER matter is whether AddPk Traveller's had indicator lights IN the speedo. late LCVs & all Neiman PO vans had this, the latter having an indicator stalk(NO green lense) & a square flasher unit BEHIND their O/S glovebox in a bkt.
....if you see a cylindrical flasher unit on the b/head of a restored PO Neiman van...ain't FULLY restored...
Never understand why Neiman PO vans had "snap off" steering column fixing bolts.....weird!
Strange that more is known about the earliest cars than the stuff nearing the end of production.

[firedrake1942]

Better records perhaps. more conscientious in recording in the 1940's / 50's than in late 60's / 70's when the Minor run was coming to an end. Keep the good work!

I still can't believe that UK has only 745 Travellers left ! How many are in a reasonable state How many saloons / convertibles I wonder remain?

I had this rather rosy view that we, collectively, were making a difference in preserving these wonderful cars, but that so few Travellers out of 150,000 are actually out there. I know that those that are are probably better maintained and in better condition than ever before but we should not be complacent and seize the opportunity to rescue as many as possible while we still can. The recent restoration by CW in Bristol of that Million which was a blue painted pile of rusty metal shows what can be done where there is a will (and funds) and those hardy souls who do it themselves as documented here are shining examples. Sage Green Pete's is one such, there are many others.

I wonder if the Club should recognise that numbers are or may be dwindling, and below a certain point, the magnificent network of restorers and parts suppliers, we currently enjoy, may not find to economical to continue. Should the Club's focus now not be rescue of project worthy vehicles and others for salvage and parts ??

Just a thought !

[panky]

My AddPk traveller didn't originally have the indicator repeater in the speedo, just the green light on the indicator stalk