'Smart' motorways

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Do you agree that smart motorways implementation should be halted until an enquiry is held?

Yes
120
95%
No
6
5%
 
Total votes: 126

smithskids
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by smithskids »

I have also read recently the the "green" electric cars just stop when they go wrong and can dump you in the fast lane, never mind the smart inside lane. Maybe they should have ejector seats fitted biased to propel you onto the grass?!! Get the hydrogen conversions going then we can all be clean. Cut air travel down a bit, that will clean up the air.
stuffedpike20
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by stuffedpike20 »

There is no such thing as 'the fast lane'. The outside of the lane of the motorway is for overtaking only.
There is no such thing as a 'smart lane', on a smart motorway. None of it is smart.
simmitc
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by simmitc »

Maybe they should have ejector seats fitted biased to propel you onto the grass?
Helpful when driving through a rock lined cutting or over a bridge :o
jagnut66
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by jagnut66 »

Helpful when driving through a rock lined cutting or over a bridge :o
A quick way of getting rid of unwanted passengers though, Mr. Bond............
Now where did my cat get to??..............
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Blaketon
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Blaketon »

I recently had cause to go to a funeral in Normandy (The one near Guildford in Surrey!!). I've not been that way for some time and I see that the M4 is to be "Smartened" as far as junction 12, by the Spring of 2022. From what I could see, returning home during the rush hour, if you were to break down and someone come into the back of you, they'ed be doing no more than 20mph :roll: . There was another road, which I think was the M3 and that had four lanes and no hard shoulder. What was worse, the barriers were within four feet or so of the curb (With far more than that behind the barrier). What kind's of numpties decide upon these things? I wasn't the one driving and I wouldn't knowingly use one of those roads.

Even if you don't break down, you could still be caught up in an accident resulting from someone else breaking down. At one point, a car broke down in the middle lane at traffic lights. Seeing the way, that nobody would give way, was very informative. Thank God I live in what some might call "Out in the sticks".
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by jagnut66 »

I had cause to drive down the M1 today, to collect some wheels for Sally (the set included the two series 2 wheels I was looking for).
I see that despite stating that all work would stop pending an inquiry into the safety of so called 'smart motorways', work on 'smartening' the section of the M1 around Milton Keynes is continuing at a pace.
Sadly, as I said earlier, I don't think they will stop until confronted with a major pile-up and multiple deaths.
Clearly a death toll of 38 is not enough for the bone heads who think they know better than us and are never wrong, even when confronted with the obvious gross stupidity of their actions........
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by robbot7 »

hi, I live in between j10 and J11 at reading and M4 just been converted and already been repurted several side swpes as lanes are too narrow. so YES
simmitc
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by simmitc »

Back in February I asked for an explanation from the "no" voters. but still nothing. As I wrote at the time, I don't say that they should not hold those views, and I respect individual opinions; but we've had good explanations for the "yes" votes, so why can't the "no" voters explain their views so that the rest of us can understand them?
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Sleeper »

Trolls ?

John ;-)
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Admin »

Maybe they were using the tenth man principle, a variant of which keeps me occupied in a variety of arguments on social media, some of which I don't even believe in but which I feel duty bound to shout for simply because nobody else is :D
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KeithL
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by KeithL »

I haven't replied up until now because a) I wasn't aware I had to justify my vote and b) I am well aware of what the reaction will be from some despite what simmitc may say. Interestingly about 47 of the 62 who voted 'Yes' have not justified their vote but no one has chased them or suggested they might be trolls.

No, I don't think implementation should stop whilst there is an enquiry. To do so would put back the motorway improvement program by several years and there is nothing to say the enquiry will conclude that Smart motorways should be scrapped.

Can Smart motorways be improved? Yes, of course they can. A smaller gap between emergency bays, as on the section of the M42 where the original trials took place, would be a good start. The education of drivers could also be improved.

There have always been 'accidents' and deaths on our motorways, and more than once there has been a "major pile-up and multiple deaths". These haven't come about because of Smart motorways. 38 people have died on Smart motorways in the last 5 years. In that period the total number of deaths on our motorways has been about 500.

People are critical of the lack of a hard shoulder. The problem with a hard shoulder is that people become complacent and think they are safe to stop to go to the toilet, make a phone call, look at the map or even have their lunch. How many times have people been killed on the hard shoulder because someone has run into them. On a Smart motorway people know it is not safe to stop and only do so in an emergency at which point they should be picked up by the cameras, the lane should be closed and assistance sent to them. If you stop in any of the outside lanes then of course Smart motorways are safer than a 'normal' motorway because there are more cameras and overhead gantries that can be used to close the affected lane(s). Of course if drivers ignore the signs and continue to drive in a lane that has been closed then you probably will have an 'accident' but the probability should be reduced. They are very, very few accidents on a motorway but an awful lot of incidents caused by poor driving and drivers who think the rules don't apply to them.

What is the alternative to Smart motorways? The obvious answer is to widen the existing motorways but at a huge cost, and it would take years to get approval for widening work. Meanwhile the motorways are grinding to a halt. I wonder how many of those who voted 'Yes' have to use motorways daily and spend hours in queues every week to get to and from work, or as part of their work? Smart motorways are a relatively cost effective (but still very expensive) solution to easing congestion on the busiest sections of our motorway network.

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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Admin »

Well thanks for giving your view, anyway :D . Personally, I disagree with pretty much all of it, but hey that's what a forum is for - so everyone gets to give their view, presuming that they want to. As a starter for ten, I'll throw in a news report about monitoring of the cameras, the same cameras that centre staff use to close lanes after a breakdown, and without which nobody gets to know that a lane has a breakdown in it until they run into the back of it... https://www.fuelcardservices.com/highwa ... monitored/
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Trickydicky
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Trickydicky »

Keith has hit the nail on the head on a number of points,

The main one for me is Education, when smart motorways were starting to be introduced there was very little Information made available for the ordinary motorist. On another note of education, it is only recently that motorway driving tuition has been available for new drivers. How many of us know someone who hates driving on a motorway because it scares them to death?

On the section between Bradford and Leeds (M606, M621) pre smart motorway was gridlocked pre 9:30am. Smart Motorway solved the problems and kept traffic flowing reducing journey time.

For me, the problem is not the design of them it’s educating motorists how to use them properly. It’s no good dismissing them as the root cause of accidents, there are many contributing attributes.

There are far too many people on the road today who have developed bad driving habits and get wrapped up in other things happening around them, the modern car provides many distractions. They the ones for me who cause the accidents not the poor motorist who happens to be unlucky and break down.
Richard

Opinions are like people,everyone can be different.
jagnut66
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by jagnut66 »

Keith has hit the nail on the head on a number of points,

The main one for me is Education, when smart motorways were starting to be introduced there was very little Information made available for the ordinary motorist. On another note of education, it is only recently that motorway driving tuition has been available for new drivers. How many of us know someone who hates driving on a motorway because it scares them to death?

On the section between Bradford and Leeds (M606, M621) pre smart motorway was gridlocked pre 9:30am. Smart Motorway solved the problems and kept traffic flowing reducing journey time.

For me, the problem is not the design of them it’s educating motorists how to use them properly. It’s no good dismissing them as the root cause of accidents, there are many contributing attributes.

There are far too many people on the road today who have developed bad driving habits and get wrapped up in other things happening around them, the modern car provides many distractions. They the ones for me who cause the accidents not the poor motorist who happens to be unlucky and break down.
Nonetheless (and your last sentence makes this point for me), if there were still a continuous hard shoulder, then they would always have somewhere to pull over onto (unless in an electric car which stopped dead, as someone raised earlier) for safety.
Relying on said breakdown occurring at a convenient spot to be able to get straight into a 'refuge area' before there is a multiple pile up is insanity manifest!
It's the removal of the hard shoulder / safety lane that most people see as madness.
Until this is reinstated all the good points you may raise will never sell me (or others I suspect) on the current 'so called' smart motorways.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Murrayminor
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Murrayminor »

I appreciate this is an old discussion but having just come across it I have a few words on the subject.

In the UK we have motorways, the majority are three lanes wide.
We have millions of vehicles on the road at any given time, I would say the vast majority of those vehicles at this moment in time are currently in the wrong lane on the motorway.

Many times we see someone hogging the middle lane at 55mph, therefore HGV's are forced into lane two and are then stuck behind a rolling road block for miles.
When a HGV slows and loses momentum everything increases, fuel consumption, stress, managers who are monitoring the truck, the stock is arriving late etc.

The middle lane driver is oblivious to all of this and happily carries on in the "safe" lane because they have never had any training on Motorway use.

Over the years I have spoken to a few drivers hogging the middle lane and have heard all sorts of statements why they are in lane two.
" Lane two is for medium speed", "Lane one is only for trucks", "lane one is 50mph, lane two is 60mph and lane three is 70mph".

These are just a few examples that have stuck with me, but believe me there are lots more.

Now imagine the same person who stated the above is now in lane three of a smart motorway and they begin to have car trouble, travelling at 55mph they have to get across three lanes of traffic, which in all probability are full of HGV's, but they see lane four has a three foot wide space before the barrier, no brainer, pull over and stop in lane four, hop out and wait in the central reservation.


We now have a vehicle stopped in a live lane with vehicles bearing down on it at 70mph plus, there is only going to be one outcome I'm afraid.

The above scenario is a job I dealt with not so long ago, the driver a young lady was totally oblivious and clearly did not have a clue how a motorway worked.

The motorway was closed for nearly 3/4 hour while we stopped all the traffic and extracted the broken down vehicle and managed to clear the lanes.

Now I appreciate we all want to get to our destination as smoothly as possible (I for one do not use motorways if I can help it) and the huge amount of vehicles on the road need something, but four lanes of traffic with a small refuge every 1.5 miles is just asking for trouble especially as people will not adhere or simply do not know how to use a motorway.

Had training been given when people passed their driving tests or even a part two test once they had passed the initial driving test then our motorways would carry the vast majority of traffic without issue, Lane discipline is the key.

Travel to the continent, France, Belgium, Germany etc and observe the lane discipline, you will see how those motorways can carry vast amounts of traffic one everybody adheres to the rules.

Keep left unless overtaking is the simple rule, if everybody used it then the roads would flow much better.

Then we have variable speed limits, again designed to keep traffic flow moving to prevent the concertina effect.
That is when the traffic at the head of the queue has to slow or stop, they may only be at a standstill for a matter of seconds but the effect on traffic many miles behind can mean stationary traffic for hours.

All because of drivers not heeding what they are being told, if the advisory speed limit (those displayed in yellow on motorways) states 40mph, then slow to 40mph that way it stops the full on concertina effect and the traffic actually flows better, instead people rush headlong into slower moving traffic, brake hard causing the traffic behind to do the same and before long we have a huge queue of standing traffic.

So Smart motorways will only work if the drivers take heed of the signs and alter their driving accordingly, the motorways are designed to capture any slow or stationary vehicles and automatically illuminate the signals behind the stricken vehicle, if everyone then obeyed the signals in theory it would work but unfortunately people ignore the warning signs and plough on regardless to get to the front of the queue!

One last thing, I have stood on a motorway, in the snow and hail in full high visibility clothing behind a fully liveried police land rover discovery with its emergency lighting illuminated dealing with a job on a so called closed motorway when I have seen a vehicle drive along the hard shoulder passing stationary vehicles, when stopped by my colleague the driver stated he was getting off at the next junction and wasn't causing any problems.

Hence why I tend not to use motorways unless I can help it.

I agree the smart motorway can appear daunting and a refuge every 1.5 miles is too far but the smart motorway can work if people simply adhere to what they are being advised to do and use lane discipline.

Dermot.
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geoberni
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by geoberni »

Murrayminor wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:35 am I appreciate this is an old discussion but having just come across it I have a few words on the subject........

Dermot.
All very true Dermot, but the question is, why are people so ignorant of how to use a Motorway?

I passed my test in 1975, and quickly learnt how to drive on Motorways, always keeping left. As a newly qualified driver, my occasional weekends at home required me to use the M6/M1 and North Circular on a Friday evening!

Why are so many drivers now completely ignorant of the rules, when for many of them their lessons/test include such multi-lane driving....
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Murrayminor »

geoberni wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:19 am
Murrayminor wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:35 am I appreciate this is an old discussion but having just come across it I have a few words on the subject........

Dermot.
All very true Dermot, but the question is, why are people so ignorant of how to use a Motorway?

I passed my test in 1975, and quickly learnt how to drive on Motorways, always keeping left. As a newly qualified driver, my occasional weekends at home required me to use the M6/M1 and North Circular on a Friday evening!

Why are so many drivers now completely ignorant of the rules, when for many of them their lessons/test include such multi-lane driving....
I also passed my test without ever setting a wheel on the motorway, but before I did I made sure I knew what I was doing, these days people just live in their own bubble and have no regard for other people, hence why the motorway queues are horrendous all because people want to be first in the queue.
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by Biggles1957 »

Smart motorways will only work if the people using them have enough neurones to make a few synapses! The roads generally seem to populated by Homo Pillockius these days sadly.....
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geoberni
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by geoberni »

Murrayminor wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:34 am ......these days people just live in their own bubble and have no regard for other people, .....
That's the crux of it I guess.
Over on Twitter this morning I spotted a link to The Guardian, and an article about littering and fly-tipping.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... yside-code

The author of this article can't even tell the difference in scale between the two.
Dumping an old bed out in the countryside is the same as leaving your lunch wrapper behind on the beach. :roll:
They're both wrong, but the fly-tipping is often criminal gangs, collecting it for cash via social media like facebook community adds.

But apparently it's all the Government's fault for not educating them about the Country Code; nothing to do with taking their own responsibility for anything. :evil: :evil:

Apologies for drifting off topic....
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myoldjalopy
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Re: 'Smart' motorways

Post by myoldjalopy »

"these days people just live in their own bubble and have no regard for other people"
Sadly, this has become the norm in our society - not saying there aren't decent, unselfish people around, because, of course, there are - but the sense of community has been lost in many places. I won't go into the reasons why, as it is complicated, but society has lost a lot of values which have been replaced by self-entitlement, selfishness, greed and lack of consideration for others....I'm sure others can add to this list.
CV-19 seems to have exacerbated this. At the beginning we had people shoving others out of the way panic buying, then people flouting social distancing and since easing of lockdown things have gotten worse, it seems, with insane mass gatherings, protests, illegal raves, violence and deaths etc.
I have never witnessed a summer like this one here in Cornwall - its jammed to the hilt and we have been subjected to inconsiderate (and illegal) parking, drunkenness and physical attacks on beaches, mass-littering, people using beaches and even people's gardens as toilets, and hostility to those asking them to observe social distancing and wear maks in pubs and restaurants etc. There have been many reports of holidaymakers being highly abusive and aggressive when asked to comply with the new measures saying things like "We're on holiday and we came down here to get away from all that!" Then there have been numerous drownings and rescues, because people won't observe the advice of lifeguards and - to get back to driving - many road closures and hold-ups due to crashes and generally bad driving. Only the other day there was a near accident when some idiot overtook me and my Minor on solid white lines near the top of a hill (he couldn't wait to get past an old car) and how he didn't crash into a car coming in the opposite direction I'll never know - I had to brake pretty sharply, I can tell you. It is all so sad.
Sorry folks for such a downer :( Take care.
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