Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

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liammonty
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Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by liammonty »

Has anyone seen the letter from an MMOC member in the current Minor Matters regarding the use of tyres without tubes on standard Minor rims? I'm interested to hear people's thoughts - the piece essentially states that the use of tubeless type tyres on a minor rim is dangerous, and should never be done, due to the shape of the rim of a Minor wheel. The member who submitted the letter has done so in good faith, on the advice of his local tyre fitting centre. I appreciate that Minor rims lack the second 'shoulder', making them inherently less 'safe' than a more modern rim, but am also aware that the factory workshop manual covers the fitment of tubeless type tyres, so I don't think it's balanced (no pun intended!) to say that it is unsafe to run tubeless-type tyres on Minor rims without a tube. I think in some cases, it may potentially be more unsafe to run such tyres WITH a tube, as they are often not as smooth inside these days and could rub the inner tube if fitted, leading to the tube failing. I guess the caveat is that the article is under the 'Viewpoint' section, but I feel that the opinion presented is potentially contentious. Does anyone have any thoughts? At least it's not the normal discussion about fitting non-standard tyre sizes to rims!!!
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by myoldjalopy »

All I can say is that, in the past, I have run tubeless on standard Minor wheels for years without issue. But for no real reason, for the last 20 years I have been running tyres with inner tubes on standard wheels and the only problem I have had is I had a spate of tubes failing where they were rubbing on rusty bits around where the valve goes, but they have been fine since the rust was removed to ensure a smooth surface.
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geoberni
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by geoberni »

I think there is some confusion with both parties in this, the article in the magazine and your own comments.
Alan White (860) clearly states in his viewpoint that
.... I went to a new local tyre distributor to ask if he could fit a new tyre that I had brought online to one of the wheels. He asked me 'if I had a tube' and I said 'I don't need one'.
His reply was to point to the tyre that had stamped on it 'Tube Type'.
So Alan's problem is that he brought the wrong tyre.

He then explains further about not having the 2nd ridge blah, blah, blah.

You say:
I appreciate that Minor rims lack the second 'shoulder', making them inherently less 'safe' than a more modern rim, but am also aware that the factory workshop manual covers the fitment of tubeless type tyres, so I don't think it's balanced (no pun intended!) to say that it is unsafe to run tubeless-type tyres on Minor rims without a tube.
But the manual clearly states that a modified wheel is used with factory fit tubeless tyres, without saying what the 'modification' was. :-?

So what is the gen?

Basically, the 'safety rim' was developed after the tubeless tyre, by quite a few years.

So the afore mentioned "new local tyre distributor" was both right, for Alan buying the wrong tyre, but wrong for expecting to see a 'safety rim'.

This video explains it all quite succinctly. In the 60s/70s, tubeless tyres were put on without a safety rim, because it hadn't been invented. Keep your tyres properly inflated and it's not a problem.
The safety rim is for when the tyre isn't properly inflated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
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liammonty
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by liammonty »

geoberni wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:59 am I think there is some confusion with both parties in this, the article in the magazine and your own comments.
I wasn't confused at all. In fact, I have remarkable clarity of mind on this point :wink: .

I appreciate there are two different points here. There's no argument that using a tyre designated as 'Tube type' without a tube is incorrect. The crux of the letter in Minor Matters, though, is to state that it is unsafe to run ANY tyre without a tube on a Minor, due to the absence of a safety rim. My point is that it's not correct to state this (a point which you have actually backed up in your detailed explanation), and I was surprised to see that there was no additional opinion on this in articulated in the magazine. Alan has been told (and believes) that his car has been unsafe for 53 years because of running tyres without a tube on a rim with no safety rim, a point that you and I are both saying we don't agree with.

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geoberni
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by geoberni »

Liam
sorry, only a minor (no pun) point in that you gave no indication that were aware of the caveat of the manual about it being a 'modified wheel' for tubeless tyres.
I'm not up on minor wheels to know what such a modification was.
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liammonty
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by liammonty »

geoberni wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:28 pm Liam
sorry, only a minor (no pun) point in that you gave no indication that were aware of the caveat of the manual about it being a 'modified wheel' for tubeless tyres.
I'm not up on minor wheels to know what such a modification was.
Fair point :D . I wonder if anyone does know what the modification was? I don’t!
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by geoberni »

liammonty wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:35 pm
geoberni wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:28 pm Liam
sorry, only a minor (no pun) point in that you gave no indication that were aware of the caveat of the manual about it being a 'modified wheel' for tubeless tyres.
I'm not up on minor wheels to know what such a modification was.
Fair point :D . I wonder if anyone does know what the modification was? I don’t!
Having looked at the manual some more, I think the 'modification' is in regards the valve hole position. See mention below of the latter wheels taking the all rubber valve.
Although I don't understand what they mean by the hole 'being drilled diametrically opposite to the wheel welding'... :-?
tyre 1.JPG
tyre 1.JPG (176.53 KiB) Viewed 1975 times
Tyre 2.JPG
Tyre 2.JPG (99.7 KiB) Viewed 1975 times
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liammonty
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by liammonty »

I think you're right. I'd stopped reading before I got to section O.6 on tyre valves, but it definitely looks as though that's where the difference is!
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by COMMANDER »

I too started to wonder after reading the article in Minor Matters. I have tubeless tyres on Maurice, albeit one with a tube in (don't know why, possibly a PO's puncture repair). My original driver's manual (1960) only mentions tubeless tyres, explaining all about the puncture plugging kit which was available at the time. So I've decided tubeless tyres are fine, properly inflated. BUT NOW I am wondering which type of valve they should have.
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geoberni
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by geoberni »

COMMANDER wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:33 pm I too started to wonder after reading the article in Minor Matters. I have tubeless tyres on Maurice, albeit one with a tube in (don't know why, possibly a PO's puncture repair). My original driver's manual (1960) only mentions tubeless tyres, explaining all about the puncture plugging kit which was available at the time. So I've decided tubeless tyres are fine, properly inflated. BUT NOW I am wondering which type of valve they should have.
See the post I made above. The type of valve originally depended on the wheel. I doubt you can get the original transitional screw up valve these days.
I don't understand why the type of valve we have these days was only fitted in the latter type wheel with a different drilling :-?

I've actually written a response letter to Minor Matters so let's wait and see if it's published. I think Alan White would have unnecessarily worried a few people, many of whom do not frequent these forums.
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simmitc
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by simmitc »

I know from the editor that he had quite a few responses to the original letter- enough that he didn't need any more, so there should be plenty of comment in the next issue. I think it fair to say that collective wisdom says that tubeless are fine if fitted and used correctly.
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by ManyMinors »

Quite so.
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by liammonty »

simmitc wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:34 pm I know from the editor that he had quite a few responses to the original letter- enough that he didn't need any more, so there should be plenty of comment in the next issue. I think it fair to say that collective wisdom says that tubeless are fine if fitted and used correctly.
I realise it's only published as an opinion piece, but it would be a good idea to ensure that there's some really good vetting of such letters or articles by one of the club's resident mechanical people prior to publication, as publishing it in the magazine with no counter-argument gives the impression that the view is endorsed by the club.
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by JOWETTJAVELIN »

There is no danger of a tubeless tyre coming off, as long as the pressures are correct.
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geoberni
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by geoberni »

Certainly plenty of responses to this in the latest magazine.

Generally in the same vein.
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by jagnut66 »

Hi,
I have run every Minor I've owned plus the MGB's on Tubeless tyres without issue. So I see no reason in not continuing to do so.
The main point, raised above, is to keep an eye on tyre pressure, which any responsible motorist would do, as a matter of course, anyway.
The only difference with Sally is that I have acquired some period correct wheels (with studs to mount the hub cap on).
These are riveted together rather than, as with the later wheels, welded.
However they appear to be in good condition, so I'm not worried at present.
I think the later wheels on my old 1963 two door were riveted also, so if someone can tell me when they swapped over to the welded type I'd be interested to know.
Like many owners I'm sure, I have acquired a collection of 'spare' wheel rims over time, so I can always repaint a later set, if I need to.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
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Re: Minor Matter tyre opinion piece

Post by JOWETTJAVELIN »

Welded wheels are easier and, more importantly, cheaper, to produce. Also stronger.
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