1098cc and Ford T9 Pairing

[MorrisJohn]

If anyone else is running a 1098cc with a Ford T9 5-speed ‘box is be obliged if you get in touch. I just have a couple of questions about how it should perform when under load, or going uphill at speed (50mph+).

Thanks.

[jagnut66]

Hi,
I had two in Abby, both munched their gears, both were supposed to have been refurbished, one by a reputable company.
Thoroughly fed up I reverted back to a 1098 gearbox and never had spot of bother again with the gearbox between then and the day I sold her.........
So, to answer your question regarding performance, a Type 9 is very similar in ratios to the 1098 gearbox, therefore you shouldn't (and I didn't) notice any difference in how she climbs hills etc.
The main difference is having that 5th gear for motorway work, which should make things a little smoother.
But not enough for me to want to try another Type 9 after I changed back.
Best wishes,
Mike.

[philthehill]

The original Ford gearbox conversion was done by CS Autoclassics and they used a Ford 2000E 4 speed gearbox mated to a 1098cc Minor engine.
I did a road test in the CS Autoclassics Minor and it drove very well. The only difference between the 2000E gearbox and the Type 9 is the addition of an overdrive unit to the rear of the 2000E gearbox (which then became the type 9) which gave a good cruising speed with lowered engine revs.
The 2000E gearbox conversion is still a good replacement for the Minor box and well worth the effort in doing the conversion. To me the Type 9 is over rated and expensive. You can have everything with the 2000E box except overdrive. Synchro on first gear is a blessing.

[MorrisJohn]

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen.

This has already been covered in another thread, so I don’t want to go completely over old ground. Basically when I’m on a bypass for example travelling on a flat at 60mph in 5th it’s all quite comfortable and sounds healthy. (It sounds healthy and drives absolutely fine around town too.)

But when I hit a fairly steep hill I begin to hear a sound I can only describe as a clatty Diesel engine sound, and it really struggles to maintain speed until it hits around 45mph. It makes the same noise at speed to a lesser extent on smaller inclines. Frustrating when it comes to out of town runs.

I take it this should not be gearbox related?

I have:
- Replaced the full distributor (inc vacuum)
- Converted to electronic ignition
- Had carb checked by a garage (was told OK)
- Had fuel flow rate checked by a garage (OK)
- Had fuel mixture checked by a garage (OK)
- Had valve clearances checked & reset at 15 thou
- Had head gasket checked (OK)
- Removed timing chain cover and checked cogs, ensuring timing chains timing dots align correctly and correspond to the bottom pulley dot at TDC for the purposing of timing.
- Replaced timing chain cover for one with timing teeth (old one didn’t have them) to more accurately set it with a gun
- Used a gun and reset timing best as can be achieved. Roughly 4-5 degrees BTDC. Several different angles have been tried. The problem keeps happening on hills regardless of angle, but car runs better where it’s currently set.

The next step is to try a different carb on it, in case there’s a problem with the needle causing fuel starvation under load (carb originally from a 948cc but I would expect it’s had the correct needle fitted as Charlie ware did it when they fitted the recon 1098cc engine and T9 box. It was 8yrs ago but it’s only done a few thousand miles. Car has been well looked after.

If the carb doesn’t fix it have I missed anything? My experienced friend and I that have been working on it and can’t think of any other reason why it would be happening.

That said, I’m hoping the carb change fixes it. The previous owner, a good guy and friend of mine, didn’t experience this issue with it.

I guess the reason I asked about the ‘box is that only having driven standard four speed Minors before I wanted to rule out it being a characteristic of mating the 1098 to the T9. Just in case!

[philthehill]

It seems to me that all you need to do is change down a gear when going up a steep hill.
The engine (1098cc) is not that powerful to pull you in 5th gear up a steep slope.

[ManyMinors]

I agree with Phil. A standard 1098 engine will be hard pushed to pull 5th gear up any hill. My completely standard 1098cc Minor sometimes requires a downchange from 4th gear on long inclines. I have never seen any need for a (very expensive!) change to a 5speed gearbox and certainly wouldn't consider it if I was only going to cover a few 1000 miles in 8 years.

[MorrisJohn]

Thanks again. In a way I would love it if I was chasing a red herring! I just don’t like shifting to 4th at 45-50mph because the engine screams. 40mph is generally my shift up point. I’ll try the carb anyway just to rule the final thing out.

I think I’ll look at putting it back to a standard four speed transmission in the future. It would be more than adequate for my needs.

[philthehill]

Your Minor engine should easily cope with changing from 5th to 4th at 45 mph. As 5th is overdrive dropping down to 4th is like going into top in the Minor box and a Minor engine and gearbox will run happily all day at 45mph not withstanding that the 1098cc Minor will run at 70mph in 4th.

[MorrisJohn]

Your Minor engine should easily cope with changing from 5th to 4th at 45 mph. As 5th is overdrive dropping down to 4th is like going into top in the Minor box.

Thank you. Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but does that mean if I just kept it in 4th and used it as if it were a standard box it should be perfectly happy in 4th up to 60-65mph in the same way the standard box is?

[philthehill]

It should be perfectly happy in 4th as the ratio is 1:1 which is the same as 4th in the Minor gearbox. 5th gear of the Type 9 gearbox is 0.82:1 which equates to overdrive.

[MorrisJohn]

It should be perfectly happy in 4th as the ratio is 1:1 which is the same as 4th in the Minor gearbox. 5th gear of the Type 9 gearbox is 0.82:1 which equates to overdrive.

Thank you. I’ll adjust my driving style and see if the car is happier as a result.

[pgp001]

Hi

The other thing you did not mention was that the timing had been checked, mine was a bit rough until I realised it was a bit too advanced.
The electronic ignition is a good update, but you do need to get the timing right.

Phil P

[MorrisJohn]

Hi

The other thing you did not mention was that the timing had been checked, mine was a bit rough until I realised it was a bit too advanced.
The electronic ignition is a good update, but you do need to get the timing right.

Phil P

The timing was definitely out before. When it was at its worst I couldn’t get out of 2nd gear or over 20mph when going up a steep hill. Indeed there was a long stretch on a bypass like that which felt rather dangerous. Thankfully it was very quiet. Similarly it would struggle to hit 40mph on a nearby motorway, with lengthy but fairly gentle inclines. The whole time it sounded clatty. It used to cruise at 65-70mph on a level stretch of motorway and as soon as there was so much as a slight incline the noise would start and it would slow and slow down to 45mph, when I’d have to drop a gear. The clatty noise (very noticeable!) would continue but it would at least maintain that speed.

Having adjusted the timing it does now pick up speed much better and will go uphill fine in 3rd. Even on fairly steep inclines from a standing start it will get up to around 45mph in 4th. It’s perfect in town, but I don’t want to have to avoid fast A roads and motorways.

But the disconcerting thing is the clatty noise. It sounds 100% fine in town and on level roads, and when revved at a stand, but anything with an incline at speed and it starts to sound like an old rattly diesel. I just don’t get it.

Unfortunately I live in a hilly area. I can’t leave the house without hitting them.

[liammonty]

I agree with pgp101 here - you said the timing was definitely out before and the car was gutless, which sounds like the timing was potentially too retarded but it's not clear to me if it was making the same noise as it is now back then. Are you 100% confident it's been set right now? It sounds very much like it is now too advanced - more power , but pinking under load, though it's always difficult to diagnose from other people's descriptions of sounds! You need to adjust it in a methodical manner and rule it out as the cause. The trouble is that in replacing all the other bits you have, you've run the risk of introducing other problems, as well as potentially spending lots of money unnecessarily! Has the car made this noise since you had it, or did it come on after you changed a component?

As others have said, don't be afraid to rev the engine. The standard set up on a 1098 Minor is capable of over 60 mph in 3rd without over-revving so being in 5th at 40-45 mph is cautious in the extreme! That said, it's likely prudent to go a little easy on it until you've got this issue sorted.

[kevin s]

Try sticking a tank off 97 octane super unleaded in it, if the noise goes away it's pinking, you can then try to fix it (could be loads of things) or just pay the extra for the higher octane fuel.

Type 9's are OK gearboxes, I have had one in my Elan for 25 years with no problems, but nowadays most of the ones out there are worn out many past the point where they can really be re-conditioned and they are all very expensive.

kev

[MorrisJohn]

Thanks for the help and suggestions gents. The car runs on Shell V-Power, 99 RON.

I’ve adjusted the dizzy a couple of times this morning, retarding it slightly each time. It didn’t seem to make the slightest bit of difference to how the car drives or sounds. It’s now sitting at approx 1-3 degrees before TDC. I’m out of time this morning, but I will try retarding it further still.

It’s already been run at more advanced settings with the same problem every time.

I recorded a video (sorry, no picture because I didn’t have a phone mount)...but if you watch it when it gets to around 1.30 in I’m hopeful you’ll be able to hear the noise I’m trying to describe. It gets louder as time goes on and speed increases.

https://youtu.be/TtGmfnJofBY

[jagnut66]

Similarly it would struggle to hit 40mph on a nearby motorway, with lengthy but fairly gentle inclines. The whole time it sounded clatty

I'm beginning to wonder if you have compression / bottom end issues -- no power and 'clatty' ........
It is hard to really determine from the sound on your video but from what I can hear it doesn't sound healthy.
Of course I may be wrong, is there someone in your region who could take a look in person, take her for a drive and give you a second opinion?
Best wishes,
Mike.

[Monty-4]

I doubt retarding the ignition any futher will do any good, perhaps even harm as things will get hot. I would have thought you'd be fine up to about 8 BTDC, especially if you're using fancy fuel.

How do the spark plugs look after your run? You mentioned it might be running lean under load. I've found incorrect mixture can have quite a profound impact on the sound of the car.

Worst case is this is bottom-end rumble, oil pressure will be a clue to wear there - checkable by a garage I'd think or sourcing an oil pressure gauge yourself.

Oh and it's not something else like like loose fan blades, worn engine mounts, exhaust rattling on the body, propshaft UJs, etc?

[MorrisJohn]

Thanks for the suggestions Mike. Compression was checked last year and was fine, but I’ll check it again and take note of the readings.

Something definitely isn’t right. It doesn’t drone like an a-series ought to.

I’ll get another member to give the car a drive and see if it helps pinpoint it.

—-

Monty, also thanks. I’ll skip further retardation in that case. In fact I’ll move it back to roughly 5 degrees. You’re right, it had been running at 7-8 before without any issue (other than the one being discussed).

The plugs look absolutely fine. I will try a different carb on it just in case it’s fuel starvation as this carb is originally from a 948 (I should think it’s had the correct needle fitted).

I have an oil pressure gauge, but it’s not yet installed. What sort of reading would be indicative of bottom end trouble?

Definitely not the fan (just cleaned, repainted and refitted, all good), same goes for engine mounts - just replaced them (all good now), exhaust all good. The noise definitely sounds like it’s coming from the engine. I’d bet my mortgage on it.

Thanks,

John

[liammonty]

Thanks for posting the clip. I'm sorry to say that that sounds very much like a grumbly bottom end to me - even at the beginning of the clip, it sounds bad. As already suggested, it would be worth fitting an oil pressure gauge to check the readings. If it gets worse under load, that's potentially indicative of big end bearings; also the case if it gets worse as the engine heats up and the oil thins down.