Won't start

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george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:09 am

thanks, a bit more spannering then! checked the new dizzy for compatability -Accuspark confirm it is replacement for Lucas 25/45D and correct for a 1960 Minor 948. You don't happen to know any mobile old school mechanics in the Dartford area, who could take a look?

simmitc
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Re: Won't start

Postby simmitc » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:26 pm

Another simple way to check for TDC on No. 1 is to remove all spark plugs, place your thumb tightly over the hole for the No. 1 plug and then turn the engine by hand until you feel compression building. Remove your thumb and use a torch to watch through the hole as No. 1 piston comes to top of stroke. This should correspond with the timing marks on the bottom of the timing chain cover / crankshaft pulley; and will confirm the position of the rota arm in the dizzy. I haven't fitted the electronic unit that you have used, but many of them do not generate a spark unless the engine is turning quite quickly. This makes setting the static timing very difficult; you really need a timing light to check as the engine is spinning faster.

Given that you have no spark at the moment the basic problem has to be electrical (including poor fitting of dizzy) but if you get a spark at the right time and it still won't run then we can look at fuel and compression, but let's get some sparks first.

oliver90owner
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Re: Won't start

Postby oliver90owner » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:33 pm

There is a trouble shooting guide provided by accuspark at:

http://www.accuspark.co.uk/troubleshooting.html

They do warn of possible incompatibility problems when battery polarity has been changed later in the vehicle’s life...

I’m not conversant with the accuspark electronic module other than its basic operation (I’ve only ever fitted one home-built electronic ignition system, back in the 1970s).

RAB

kennatt
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Re: Won't start

Postby kennatt » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:10 am

You could just take dizzy out and fit it so that the rotor is now pointing at num.four,dosen't matter as long as the leads are correct 1342.if it is on firing number four it will run ok

anthony2
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Re: Won't start

Postby anthony2 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:50 am

Hi Have you solved your problem yet?

I have recently rebuilt my engine and had to set it up from scratch.I found the best advice here was reduce the possible faults ie.set the static timing.do the tappets,clean and set plugs,she runs.
I live ln Eynsford, if you need a hand I am willing to come over,I am not a mechanic,but I can read a manual.
Bob

oliver90owner
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Re: Won't start

Postby oliver90owner » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:38 pm

anthony2, the poster says there are no sparks. If that is the case, it will never start, whatever the other settings. It was running and now has no sparks, so it should run if sparks were present and at the right time.

george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:20 pm

anthony2 wrote:Hi Have you solved your problem yet?

I have recently rebuilt my engine and had to set it up from scratch.I found the best advice here was reduce the possible faults ie.set the static timing.do the tappets,clean and set plugs,she runs.
I live ln Eynsford, if you need a hand I am willing to come over,I am not a mechanic,but I can read a manual.
Bob
Hi Bob, Thanks for the offer of assistance, greatly received, I am about all this weekend if you are available? I live in Stone s not far from Eynesford. Accuspark sent me a new unit and it worked straight away after fitting,I ran it for about 10 minutes and switched her off, started her again and she ran but I was convinced that she was running rough not dissimilar to missing on one cylinder but doesn't round so severe, ran her again but after about another 10 mins she stopped and wouldn't fire up again. I have ordered a timing strobe light that should arrive before Saturday and I will attempt to set her all up again. Very frustrated as you can imagine. Andrew.

kennatt
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Re: Won't start

Postby kennatt » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:34 am

I see that you have changed the coil,have you got the old one,if so put it back on and try again,the new breed of coils are very suspect,it sounds like you have a heat related problem something failing when fully warmed up.classic coil symptom

palacebear
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Re: Won't start

Postby palacebear » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:01 am

george-reed wrote:I ran it for about 10 minutes and switched her off, started her again and she ran but I was convinced that she was running rough not dissimilar to missing on one cylinder but doesn't round so severe, ran her again but after about another 10 mins she stopped and wouldn't fire up again.
My Minor has standard (Not electronic) ignition. I had a similar issue with it last year. Drove okay but sounded like a slight misfire. Left to idle it would die after about 15 mins and not re-start unless left for a while. The coil (very old) felt quite hot and I was going to change it. Drove it about 10 miles one day. Left it to idle. Died after 15 mins as expected. Pulled the plugs out immediately. All 4 were sooty and wet. Mixture was far too rich and choke cable was snagging, leaving the choke slightly 'on' all the time. Had no problems since adjusting it. Still using the old coil as well. :)

I'm not saying you have the same problem but it may be worth investigating. If you do, then complete anything you intend to do on the electrical side first. As other posters have advised, don't complicate things for yourself any more than neccessary by attacking the problem from multiple angles at once!
1956 4-door called Max

myoldjalopy
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Re: Won't start

Postby myoldjalopy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am

palacebear wrote: As other posters have advised, don't complicate things for yourself any more than neccessary by attacking the problem from multiple angles at once!
Good advice, but too late now! The electronic dizzy hasn't sorted the problem so unlikely the old points set-up was the issue. Spark would seem to be poor or intermittent, . Let's hope Bob from Eynsford can come and carry out some routine, sequential tests.

george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:26 pm

Currently battery on charge to make sure I have the most juice as possible, then try again when it stops raining! Engine was turning with jump leads attached but wouldn't fire up. What volts / amps do I need from the battery to be at it's optimum?

mogbob
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Re: Won't start

Postby mogbob » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:50 pm

Fully charged should be 12.6 12.7 volts 'ish. Switch off the charger, disconnect , clean up the terminals and then put your Multi meter on to measure.
Bob

george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:03 am

thanks Bob, will check it tomorrow and see if I can get her to start.

george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm

Seems to becoming more and more confusing. Had a mobile mechanic come out and he said that the contactless ignition was not working. I got onto Accuspark who send another receiver and rotor arm and fitted this to no avail. I then had a couple of mechanics look at it from the home start cover we have in place and one didn't really do old cars so he called another one in. He checked all the things I have checked and all was working as it should. Getting fuel, getting a spark, coil input and output correct, dizzy rotor rotating. Checked choke cable, free and moving without restriction. Body of dizzy can rotate in the clamp so that I can alter the timing whilst trying to fire her up. Only thing I can see could be an issue is the oil switch sensor protrudes into path of diaphragm of dizzy so that I cannot get a full 360 degrees rotation and have to take the dizzy out and re-position to rotate the other way. Question I have is: How many degrees out of the 360 I have will be within tolerance to let the engine run and could the oil switch be at exactly those degrees? I will try and attach a picture to illustrate what I mean. All thoughts and ideas welcome!!
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simmitc
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Re: Won't start

Postby simmitc » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:43 pm

Going back to the beginning, your very first post on this topic said that the car was running, therefore the distributor must have been in the correct place. If nothing else has changed then the original distributor in the original position should still run. You should never need to rotate the dizzy through 360 degrees, and every Minor engine has the oil pressure switch in the same place and works, so yours will not be any different.

I suggest replacing everything exactly as it was, setting the points gap and timing as per the book. Once the engine starts then see if you get the original problem of it starting to miss. If yes, then (a) swap the dizzy cap only and (b) check that the air filter is not too dirty - see this thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=49906.

With the original check for a spark by opening the ponts with a screwdriver, did you check that they were closed to begin with - they must not be resting on the lobe of the shaft or moving them makes no difference. Unlike points, electronic units frequently won't fire at low rotation speed and so can appear faulty even though they are OK, hence suggesting going back to the original system.

myoldjalopy
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Re: Won't start

Postby myoldjalopy » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:11 pm

So you are now on your third electronic ignition unit???
Looking back through this thread you don’t appear to have carried out/reported back on most of the tests suggested, nor answered many of the questions put to you. When a car was running OK and then won’t start, the probability is that it is a failure of a single component, or a poor connection somewhere in either the low or high tension circuits........there was really no point in pulling out the old dizzy and fitting an electronic unit without going through a sequential series of tests. Unfortunately, you have randomly replaced so many things now and from a distance we can’t know if they have been replaced properly. If I were you, and as simmitc has suggested, I would refit the old dizzy (checking first the points are set up correctly), check the static timing is correct as previously advised by others in this thread, and then start again by checking for a spark at the king lead and report back.

dudload
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Re: Won't start

Postby dudload » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:27 pm

I might be able to help. When I changed my dizzy over to electronic last year it took me ages to get it working until I checked tdc.

Turns out the new dizzy needed to be way advanced, to the point where the vacuum advance is horizontal rather than sitting upright. If I remember correctly I even had to move the leads around to get even more advance. Worth checking out, you could have an extremely retarded timing...

Mine was accuspark too, so likelihood is is the same issue

george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:03 pm

myoldjalopy wrote:So you are now on your third electronic ignition unit???
Looking back through this thread you don’t appear to have carried out/reported back on most of the tests suggested, nor answered many of the questions put to you. When a car was running OK and then won’t start, the probability is that it is a failure of a single component, or a poor connection somewhere in either the low or high tension circuits........there was really no point in pulling out the old dizzy and fitting an electronic unit without going through a sequential series of tests. Unfortunately, you have randomly replaced so many things now and from a distance we can’t know if they have been replaced properly. If I were you, and as simmitc has suggested, I would refit the old dizzy (checking first the points are set up correctly), check the static timing is correct as previously advised by others in this thread, and then start again by checking for a spark at the king lead and report back.
Hi, Poor comms on my behalf and trying to fix the car at infrequent times due to work commitments. Have started from scratch a few times as have 2 professional car mechanics, worked systematically through power feeds to starter button, starter motor, coil, dizzy and ultimately plugs. Also checked the polarity of coil, dizzy and battery. Checked the readings from the coil primary and secondary circuits and they are satisfactory. There is a spark at each plug.
Current status is that Accuspark have stated that I can move the diaphragm through 90 degrees on the dizzy body to clear the oil switch. I have only had one new dizzy but one extra rotor and sensor. I plan to re-build the original points dizzy and try that again as well as seeing if moving the diaphragm is a sensible thing to do. Most of the pictures I have seen on line show that the diaphragm does not come near the oil switch as indeed my old dizzy does not either. I could of course have bought a dizzy that had it fitted in the wrong place if there is a possibility of it being fitted in multi positions.
Will try and keep up to date with progress and posts.

oliver90owner
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Re: Won't start

Postby oliver90owner » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:39 am

I am most certainly not a ‘professional car mechanic’. But I doubt it would take me more than half an hour to check out and isolate a problem with the Kettering system. It may take a little longer to replace the relevant bits, dependent on circumstances. So, so much for your ‘professionals’! Find a decent auto electrician, is my advice.

Myoldjalopy missed out one crucial failing - that of the human failure to find the fault and correct it in a systematic manner.

If you have a strong blue spark at the plugs, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the spark production part of the system. That is the simple reality of the situation. The other part is timing those sparks to fire at the exact (or very close to it) time required. There is only a very few degrees, of the 360 possible, when one particular cylinder will fire off the fuel charge effectively. An engine will continue to run over quite a much wider range, but starting, particularly from cold, is a somewhat different story.

Remember, there are four sparks provided by the system for every 360 degree rotation of the distributor (or for every two revolutions of the crankshaft), so there is only 90 degrees between any two sparks at the distributor (or 180 degrees rotation of the crankshaft). But these sparks also need to be directed to the appropriate cylinder as well as at the right timing in the engine cycle.

Four stroke engines operate on the “suck, squeeze, power and blow” stroke principle. The spark must occur between what should be the “squeeze and power” strokes (although, when running, the spark will be advanced a few degrees before the end of the “squeeze” (compression) stroke.

An auto electrician would sort this type of problem in a very short time, I am sure. Unles he or she happens to only understand computerised electrics!

george-reed
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Re: Won't start

Postby george-reed » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:27 am

oliver90owner wrote:I am most certainly not a ‘professional car mechanic’. But I doubt it would take me more than half an hour to check out and isolate a problem with the Kettering system. It may take a little longer to replace the relevant bits, dependent on circumstances. So, so much for your ‘professionals’! Find a decent auto electrician, is my advice.

Myoldjalopy missed out one crucial failing - that of the human failure to find the fault and correct it in a systematic manner.

If you have a strong blue spark at the plugs, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the spark production part of the system. That is the simple reality of the situation. The other part is timing those sparks to fire at the exact (or very close to it) time required. There is only a very few degrees, of the 360 possible, when one particular cylinder will fire off the fuel charge effectively. An engine will continue to run over quite a much wider range, but starting, particularly from cold, is a somewhat different story.

Remember, there are four sparks provided by the system for every 360 degree rotation of the distributor (or for every two revolutions of the crankshaft), so there is only 90 degrees between any two sparks at the distributor (or 180 degrees rotation of the crankshaft). But these sparks also need to be directed to the appropriate cylinder as well as at the right timing in the engine cycle.

Four stroke engines operate on the “suck, squeeze, power and blow” stroke principle. The spark must occur between what should be the “squeeze and power” strokes (although, when running, the spark will be advanced a few degrees before the end of the “squeeze” (compression) stroke.

An auto electrician would sort this type of problem in a very short time, I am sure. Unles he or she happens to only understand computerised electrics!

I think you may have hit the nail on the head, the mechanics were on behalf the breakdown company we have with our insurance and where I do not question their qualifications they are much more used to modern cars where the diagnostic plug will tell you what is not working. Neither could get the car to run. I have a hour spare later today so will concentrate more on the distributors as ideally I would like to get them both to work. I still think it is timing as the main issue as everything else is working. as the great Eric Morecombe once said "I am playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order!"
I have not strayed from the firing order of 1.3.4.2 and the rotation being anti clockwise so it should just be the time each plug sparks in relation to its cylinder cycle.

This afternoon's update, checked the following.
Battery 12v + satis
power to coil 12v + satis
Fuel pump ticking over nicely fuel in cylinders
power to starter motor 12v + and energizes, engages and rotates engine
cranked number 1 piston to TDC
cleaned and fitted new distributor, located rotor arm to face number 1 cylinder
attached number 1 HT lead to dizzy and plug, repeat for lead 3, 4 and 2 in that order anti clockwise
checked for spark at king lead, (present) then attached to dizzy
spark occurs at each plug I have a see through spark indicator, tried systematically and randomly at each plug, all light up.
dizzy set with diaphragm in an upright position and tried to start again, everything works but engine will not fire up correctly,
rotated dizzy body in small increments both clockwise and anti clockwise to see if she will start, bit of popping and banging but not enough to fire up and run.
What have I missed?
Last edited by george-reed on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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