dead moggy

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oliver90owner
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Re: dead moggy

Postby oliver90owner » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:25 pm

I’ve changed over quite a few vehicles from dynamo to alternator, in 50 years - mostly Fords.

Never, ever have I used the dynamo voltage control box. The feed from the alternator has been fed directly to the battery via a much heavier cable than that used by the dynamo.

First alternators were 14ACR, then 18ACR and later as much as 60 Amp alternators. Using the dynamo wiring, through the wiring harness, is just asking for problems with an alternator fitted, IMO. The wiring harness was not designed for it.

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:28 pm

No worries geo, got a little frustrated but as I said to phil water off a ducks back, had I not have asked for advise and perhaps got pics to support then this thread would have been over ages ago, but I got a result, lights are nothing if the engine don't run and thanks to you and everyone else my willy runs, so thanks everyone

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Just in case people get the wrong idea, willy is my moggy,😭😅😃

StillGotMy1stCar
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Re: dead moggy

Postby StillGotMy1stCar » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:07 pm

Darren your Willy will be fine, for your information it has been mentioned that the high current from the alternator goes through the regulator. This is not the case, the high current output from the alternator goes to battery connection side of the starter switch with a suitably sized wire as you would expect.
The current between A and A1 is no more than if it had a dynamo, it’s the battery that delivers the high current in excess of 500 amps with a good battery.
So A and A1 are just used as a join with the added bonus of a weak link like a fuse that has possibly saved your wiring.
Not getting at anyone just thought I’d better mention it.
Regards John

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Re: dead moggy

Postby pgp001 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:29 pm

geoberni wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:06 pm
pgp001 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:14 pm
geoberni wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm
If there is no sign that the little metal strip had somehow shorted to the bulkhead, then it must be that there is some other significant wiring damage to the lighting wiring somewhere.
You will have to find that before you move on.

You could try checking each segment of the lighting wiring with the multimeter set to ohms to find a dead short to earth
,
Yesterday you publicly shot me down in flames for daring to suggest that there could be a short to earth.

Thanks
Phil

What you said was :
pgp001 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:25 pm
It sounds like you have a short to earth on the A1 side if you get 12V between A and A1.

If your meter measures ohms, check between A1 and earth to see what resistance there is. You may need to start disconnecting things then to isolate the problem.

Phil
Your statement is completely reverse of the fact, as I explained . If you are reading 12 volts across 2 points in a circuit, then you've not got a short between those points, you've got an open circuit. To read any voltage between 2 points, there has to be some resistance for the voltage to drop. What you read is the difference in the potential between the 2 points.

So I was 'shooting down' a completely misleading statement, not the general principal of a short on the vehicle wiring.
[/quote]

You are putting words into my mouth now.
At no point did I say or even infer that there was a short between A and A1. I am not that stupid.
What I said was that if he was getting 12V across those terminals it suggests one of them is at battery voltage and the other has a path to earth somewhere, and that he should be checking for where that earth path was on terminal A1 before proceeding any further.

Lets just leave it at that. Life is too short to argue about this any more.

Phil

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:00 pm

Cheers john,🙂

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:16 pm

StillGotMy1stCar wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:07 pm
Darren your Willy will be fine, for your information it has been mentioned that the high current from the alternator goes through the regulator. This is not the case, the high current output from the alternator goes to battery connection side of the starter switch with a suitably sized wire as you would expect.
The current between A and A1 is no more than if it had a dynamo, it’s the battery that delivers the high current in excess of 500 amps with a good battery.
So A and A1 are just used as a join with the added bonus of a weak link like a fuse that has possibly saved your wiring.
Not getting at anyone just thought I’d better mention it.
Regards John
John, this is getting to be a long thread. I agree with you to a point, in that in normal usage, the high current goes to the battery connection, but in a serious fault, it goes via that A/A1 link, Which is why it 'went like a fuse' but given the size of that link it must've been a serious high current to vaporise such a large segment.
I hope darrenj finds it soon and lets us know where it was.
Basil the 1955 series II

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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:22 pm

pgp001 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:29 pm

Lets just leave it at that. Life is too short to argue about this any more.

Phil
I agree. Semantics perhaps. I'm incorrect to say you were completely wrong.
Now I read it yet again, the first part is right, the 2nd part is misleading at least to me. But I can see the way you intended it.

Regards
Berni
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pgp001
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Re: dead moggy

Postby pgp001 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:31 pm

Berni. Thanks for that.

It is sometimes difficult to get your own thought process down into just a few words that someone else with not much know-how can fully interpret and understand, but I think we are all on the same page now. :D

Phil

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:15 am

Hey Phil
It brought back memories of a time in the 70s when I went out to look at a snag on an aircraft with the assistance of a fellow electrician, the difference being I was the 'technician', he was the 'mechanic'; he checked the fuse and told me it was OK, so we spent an hour chasing the fault around the aircraft before I, in total desperation, went back to check the fuse and found it ruptured.
He had made the mistake of thinking battery voltage across the fuse meant it was OK.
But we found the fault in the end, and 40 years later we're still good friends.

This sort of basic electrical snag is confusing for many, but my 'bread and butter', so sorry if I ruffled feathers. :wink:

When some of the members around here start talking engine improvements and modifications, they are talking a totally different language as far as I'm concerned. :)
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ManyMinors
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Re: dead moggy

Postby ManyMinors » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:46 am

Quite honestly, with old wiring in that state and with safety as well as long-term reliability in mind, I would order a complete new wiring loom for the car custom built to suit an alternator(and any other accessories you have as well) - and buy a new fusebox while you're at it. Re-wiring a Minor isn't a difficult job and if you can't do it yourself it won't cost a fortune to pay someone. The new regulators available now are poor quality, you don't need one, and the money spent could go towards a new purpose built loom. Old cars with poor looms cause all sorts of problems and you'll be chasing them all around the car.

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:29 am

I appreciate ManyMinors sentiment about rewiring the car, but I think it is a rush to judgement by any of us without seeing it first hand.
What we can see in those photographs looks horrible, with loose wires all over the place, but could equally all be cosmetic and a darn good clean up of the engine bay and a tidy up of stray wires might be all that is needed for the actual original loom or any replacement it may already of had.

If you zoom in on the individual wires, they look dirty, but the insulation is intact; it's not as if it is showing any signs of breaking up.
I believe that yellow wire connected to the brown/yellow is a result of the Alternator fit. With the removal of the insides from the Regulator, that connection could be made by simply putting both wires on D.
Equally, those 3 black wires joined by the blue tape.... if they are all earths that were previously on E, then put them back together on E. There is no electrical need to remove them from E in the first place, even though some conversion diagrams say to do so. There's plenty of wiring diagrams that leave the black(s) on E, especially those that acknowledge the fact that many cars will have more than 1 black wire there, because it's been used as a junction of earth wires.

lets not forget that this fault, from the original description, appears to have occurred when the spotlights were switched on. Unless the car has already had a bespoke loom fitted, then it's most likely the gash installation of the spot lights that is the problem.
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oliver90owner
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Re: dead moggy

Postby oliver90owner » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:54 am

I appreciate ManyMinors sentiment about rewiring the car, but I think it is a rush to judgement by any of us without seeing it first hand.

It was an opinion by ManyMinors and a personal decision of what he would do if the vehicle was his. No sentiment - he was considering the fire-safety of that harness. I might, too, but I would likely make do and mend, wherever economic - provided the wiring was sound. If - and that is an IF - the harness has been subjected to as much as a 60A prolonged current through conductors (sized for 20A) within a well insulated bundle of wires, I would be checking out the wrapped sections very carefully. I’ve seen the damage caused by a melted wiring harness.

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Totally agree. Not sure you understand my use of the noun 'sentiment' though.

a view or opinion that is held or expressed.
I personally wouldn't have even tried to start the car until I had found what caused the burnout of that strip of conductor.
I don't think there was 'prolonged current' because the instant that link went open circuit, the current stopped. What has surprised me is that it vaporised rather than melted. I would associate melting with being subjected to prolonged over-current.

I'm intrigued as to what the final findings of the investigation show us.
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pgp001
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Re: dead moggy

Postby pgp001 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:10 pm

My concern is that the original problem which caused the link on the regulator to blow has still not been identified.
All that has happened if my understanding is correct, is that two fuses have been replaced and the wires that were connected to A and A1 have been joined together to re-make that circuit and get the car to run.

Assuming the owner has already tried to switch on the lights again but they still dont work, would suggest that something is still very wrong on that circuit and it could potentially happen again, only this time there is no strip to burn out on the regulator and the wiring will take the brunt of the current until it fails or maybe even burns.

The above is all supposition, and I dont want to frighten the owner, but if it were mine I think I would be disconnecting the battery when leaving the car unattended until I had found the problem and fixed it properly. If a wire has rubbed through to the core on the body somewhere, it might short out at any time unless its found.

I speak from experience.
Many years ago, the main battery cable on my Mini van which ran under the outside of the car floor from the battery behind the drivers seat, chafed through the insulation where it passed through the floor, things got very exiting extremely quickly and I only just managed to stop and got the battery disconnected in the nick of time before the whole thing went up in smoke :cry:

Phil

EDIT
Bernie just beat me to it again.

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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:51 pm

Just a top up, the a and a1 wires are together with 30 amp fuses, and yes the battery is now disconnected as I am also concerned that I haven't found the main fault yet, at the weekend I'm going to strip out the light circuit with a mate who's a sparky and hopefully find the prob, as I don't want a burnt shell on my drive and would love to actually drive the car, by the way its willy's 60th birthday today, gutted I missed my own deadline, I will be cleaning up as well so no indecent pics in future😃

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:24 pm

Well that sounds like real progress.
Your Lecky pal should soon have an answer for you.
Anyone who knows their way around with a multimeter should hopefully locate the problem in a few minutes.

The other advantage to having a clean engine bay is making problems like this far easier to spot. :lol: :lol:
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:38 pm

Update on my willy😂 started this morning buy removing the fuse wires and fuses clean the body etc to find the reason my car blew the regulator, while doing the lighting wires I thought get the pull switch out and check the back, well if it has worked check out the pics, lighting switch is in 2 bits, does anybody have a spare they can sell me, the on I have is def not Salvagable, and it jas arced on one of the terminals so I def want a replacement, if anyone can help, its a 4 door saloon 1959, 948cc, many thanks,
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StillGotMy1stCar
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Re: dead moggy

Postby StillGotMy1stCar » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:53 pm

Excellent, looking at your photos I’m guessing as the switch fell apart the live touched the end of the uninsulated light switch shaft (that’s if I have understood the switch construction). The other two contacts don’t appear to have had an overload.
Please fit a grommet where the two red wires go through the bulkhead.
I think the member fingolfin has mentioned that the new replacements are of a low quality.
Good used or new old stock is the order of the day.
Edit; just looked on wanted and fingolfin mentioned poor wiper switches.
Regards John

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:13 pm

Found a new switch at Andrew eggletons o line £24 new, would prefer older used one so it fits In with the other's again, all other dash switches are ok, if anyone can help, thanks,


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