Is there a Stewart and Ardern archive?

[bugsy]

It's a long story, but in brief I've recently discovered that my convertible, bought 6 years ago as a replica, is in fact an original. I've obtained a heritage certificate for it (the engine has been changed but colour, body, NMP and chassis numbers all exactly correspond with the factory record) and the V5 has gone off for amendment, and a newly engraved plate is fitted to the bulkhead. It seems that, by some dubious act, over 30 years ago, my Moggy became a 2-door saloon that later magically transformed back into a convertible again - the whos, whys and wherefores being long lost in the mists of time, of course! Whatever, from my researches to date, it seems highly likely that the reg no it now has is not the same one that it had when it was collected by its first proud owner. The factory record shows it was delivered to Stewart and Ardern Ltd of Acton in 1967 - then the foremost BMC dealer in the country, founded in 1913. They sold hundreds if not thousands of Morris vehicles during their long and illustrious history which ceased back in the 80s I believe. Somewhere perhaps there's a large document archive detailing all of that?

It would be nice (but not essential) to track down my car's original reg no - the service history I have for it, covers only the past decade or so and further back I have only old MOT certs and tax discs, all with its current reg no. and where appropriate, 'misapplied' VIN. So it appears that the only way to establish the reg no back at the time of delivery to the first owner would be to examine the sales register/delivery invoice records of Stewart and Arden to see if that was recorded when its sale was completed. The British Motor Museum don't have any knowledge of old S&A paperwork, and declared my quest as 'impossible' when I explained I wanted to check the first reg no of my car.

But maybe someone else in the MMOC has had a similar requirement, or perhaps knows if there is an archive of S & A records. The chances are that it all went for recycling of course, but who knows?

All info and tips welcome!

[busguy]

When DVLA was first set up, in the late 70's early 80's, many vehicle make/model mistakes were made in these early days when they had the mammoth task of transferring all vehicle details from old buff/green log books on to the computer. Other people on this site have commented on such mistakes. It may be that this is one such glitch.
Have you got the original log book or a copy of it in the history file?

[POMMReg]

Have you checked the chassis number stamped into the bulkhead and the rear axle number?

There are many hiccups on the factory ledgers, as well as dealers - inconsistences between chassis details ON the car and those recorded at the various MVL's archives - for example; 445556 instead of 444556 etc.

A Michael Caine phrase springs to mind....

[les]

Blowing the bloody doors off ?????

[Gilesv]

The other problem with Stewart and Ardern is that it was the sole London distributor for Morris cars. (Gordon Stewart was a friend of William Morris). As I understand it, the cars were delivered to Acton - the distribution centre - from the factories and then may have ended up with smaller independent London dealers or elsewhere even. This comes to mind when I think of a friend's '65 4 door which although carrying a Hampshire registration from new was in fact, dispatched to S&A at Acton from Cowley. Sorry to make things worse.

[bugsy]

When DVLA was first set up, in the late 70's early 80's, many vehicle make/model mistakes were made in these early days when they had the mammoth task of transferring all vehicle details from old buff/green log books on to the computer. Other people on this site have commented on such mistakes. It may be that this is one such glitch.
Have you got the original log book or a copy of it in the history file?

Unfortunately, no. The earliest paperwork I have is an MOT cert from 1985 bearing only the current reg no. I also have MOT certs from the mid 90s bearing the 'wrong' M/A2S5 no on the bulkhead plate. I now have the heritage certificate and the body, NMP and stamped chassis no and colour all exactly correspond with the production record. I'm 80% sure the bulkhead and reg plates were transferred from a 2 door saloon in about 1985, so it's been masquerading as a post-production convertible for over 30 years! I've sent the V5 back to DVLA with ths change of VIN as the law is quite specific - the chassis no on the V5 must be the same as that stamped on the chassis. They may or may not require an inspection - we'll see. If it is a glitch, it involved a complete switch of registrations between vehicles - possible but unlikely I think.

[bugsy]

The other problem with Stewart and Ardern is that it was the sole London distributor for Morris cars. (Gordon Stewart was a friend of William Morris). As I understand it, the cars were delivered to Acton - the distribution centre - from the factories and then may have ended up with smaller independent London dealers or elsewhere even. This comes to mind when I think of a friend's '65 4 door which although carrying a Hampshire registration from new was in fact, dispatched to S&A at Acton from Cowley. Sorry to make things worse.

Thanks for response! I asked Gaydon if they had any old S&A records - they answered no. When I said I was trying to get back to the original reg no at time of delivery they said 'impossible' , so the best I can do is see if its feasible to get an age-related plate. May not be worth the bother.

[bugsy]

Have you checked the chassis number stamped into the bulkhead and the rear axle number?

There are many hiccups on the factory ledgers, as well as dealers - inconsistences between chassis details ON the car and those recorded at the various MVL's archives - for example; 445556 instead of 444556 etc.

A Michael Caine phrase springs to mind....

Thanks for response!

It was finding the stamped in chassis no (in the floor on late models) that started all this, now subsequently confirmed as a factory produced tourer by the heritage cert. That has the axle no on it, so I'll check that sometime. Body and NMP nos all check as correct with the factory record as does the colour. However, HPI check on its current reg notes colour change in 1985, otherwise clean. The actual car never had a colour change, so someone exchanged IDs with a 2 door saloon about 31 years ago - anyone's guess why, but almost certainly not for an honest purpose! Engine & gearbox have been changed but probably not the axle. Watch this space for the next instalment!

[POMMReg]

Have you tried Middx MVL archives?

[bugsy]

Have you tried Middx MVL archives?

Yes I did, only to discover that driver and vehicle licensing was transferred to Greater London in 1965. My car left the works in 67. I did a search and found the London Metropolitan vehicle archive extends to a whole 0.36m (of shelf presumably) - so it's a dead end online (there's no evidence of any search tools or historic online archive), and probably the paper records have long since gone as well, probably when it was all shipped to DVLA for transfer when the central system was set up.

[POMMReg]

Have you tried Middx MVL archives?

Yes I did, only to discover that driver and vehicle licensing was transferred to Greater London in 1965. My car left the works in 67. I did a search and found the London Metropolitan vehicle archive extends to a whole 0.36m (of shelf presumably) - so it's a dead end online (there's no evidence of any search tools or historic online archive), and probably the paper records have long since gone as well, probably when it was all shipped to DVLA for transfer when the central system was set up.

Pretty much what the Kithead Trust says, absorbed into London in 1965 - GPO began issuing some oddballs from then on.

Would take the "mission impossible" reference with a pinch of salt, extensive research CAN turn up super info!!

[bugsy]

I've been looking for the axle number - I've been all over it and can't find the number for love or money! Any tips as to exactly where it is, how big it is etc?

[POMMReg]

I've been looking for the axle number - I've been all over it and can't find the number for love or money! Any tips as to exactly where it is, how big it is etc?

Should be above the osf axle casing seam about 4-5" from spring hoops - could someone do a pic please?

Will be stamped haphazardly, like bulkhead Vin.

[bugsy]

I've been looking for the axle number - I've been all over it and can't find the number for love or money! Any tips as to exactly where it is, how big it is etc?

Should be above the osf axle casing seam about 4-5" from spring hoops - could someone do a pic please?

Will be stamped haphazardly, like bulkhead Vin.

After another hour's crawling around, I still can't find it! I interpreted "osf" as Off Side Front, so took that to mean the side of the casing facing the front of the car, on the drivers side about 4 - 5" from the spring hoops, and after scraping off underseal, grot etc there's no sign of it there. I cleaned and checked the equivalent position on both sides of the car and both front and back of the axle casing - not a sausage. So I'm either still looking in the wrong place, the characters are small and shallow, or it never got stamped in the first place! This is unlikely I would think, as the axle no is recorded on the heritage cert. When you say 'above the seam', how far above? Do you mean on the top of the casing? If so, it could well be hidden by the brake pipes which are strapped there. How big are the characters? My car is 1967 and the chassis no is stamped into the drivers floor panel using quite large stamps, char height about 4-5mm, not on the bulkhead. As it's late model, could the axle number have moved locations like the chassis no? On the diff maybe?

[panky]

Just been out to the garage to check my spare axle casing but no joy I'm afraid. That part of the casing has quite a lot of pitting and no amount of scraping and sanding will reveal any numbers. It's a bit like seeing faces on the surface of Mars, you think you've found something but after another scrape it's gone - sorry.

[panky]

Not to be beaten I've just had the angle grinder and a flapper disc on the casing and cleaned the lot. The only place I can see where there could be a number (surface of Mars again) is on the top of the off side tube about two thirds of the way towards the diff housing. Unfortunately this is where the pitting was worse but there are no signs of any stamping anywhere else[frame][/frame]

[POMMReg]

Do a pencil rub on tracing paper or similar.

'67-'68 change when rear axle numbers were HIGHER than the gearboxes - anyone suggest why? - would guess you're looking for 6 digit number, beginning with either a "1" or a "2".

Although,a '66 saloon recorded with just "3" digits, may be a BMIHT error as all other 1098cc's are 5/6 digits.....

Talk about counting sheep......Zzzzzz

[philthehill]

These are the positions of the serial numbers of the major items on a Morris Minor.
As it says below - the axle number can be found on the front of the L/H axle tube adjacent to the spring seat.

[frame][/frame]

[bugsy]

Apologies for taking forever to reply - I was whipped into hospital at the end of Sept and lost the plot on this for a time. Thanks so much for those useful drawings and I'm afraid there was still absolutely no sign of an axle number! In the end, I didn't need it as DVLA were happy with photos of the stamped-in chassis number, the body and NMP numbers, plus the heritage certificate and MMOC dating certificate. I then had to to reregister the car with an age-related E plate. So I'm now the happy owner of an 'official' original convertible, which left the factory in May 67 and not Sep 69 as per the false registration. When, why and by whom, an original convertible was made to appear as a converted 2dr saloon (both bulkhead and no plates had been swapped from a 2dr saloon) is a complete mystery. As the true VIN number has never appeared on the DVLA database, it appears quite likely that the plate-swapping took place before 1976 - we'll never know. The good news is it's now an honest car and worth more than I paid for it.

[ManyMinors]

The good news is it's now an honest car and worth more than I paid for it.

Well, that doesn't happen very often! Good news indeed!