Why'd you enter Concours then??

To share thoughts, ideas and inspirations on the subject of councours, judging and how to restore your Minor to showroom condition

Moderator: Moderators

heathy12
Minor Fan
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:26 pm
MMOC Member: No

Why'd you enter Concours then??

Postby heathy12 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:40 pm

After a chat with my Mate I thought i'd pose the question.

Why are YOU into Concourse??

I can see the appeal in owning a mint Moggie but the (correct me if im wrong) Majority of cars are transported to and from events and receive little real use. There must be a buzz or reason behind all the concourse chaps getting into it.
JLH MORRIS MINOR RESTORATION & MODIFICATION

PSL184
Minor Legend
Posts: 4976
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:49 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby PSL184 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:14 pm

I believe MMOC concours cars have to be driven to shows. However, don't start me on polishing nuts and bolts for prizes :roll:
[sig]8426[/sig]

Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php

heathy12
Minor Fan
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:26 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby heathy12 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:18 pm

PSL184 wrote:However, don't start me on polishing nuts and bolts for prizes :roll:
Thats my veiw on it, BUT I have no insight to it so cannot judge others on something I want to find out about and understand.

I understand some are used to drive to shows But the majority ive seen have been rolled off trailers with seperate fuel tanks for short ferry trips round shows. :lol: Just want to offer people in the click to help all us understand that side of things.
JLH MORRIS MINOR RESTORATION & MODIFICATION

PSL184
Minor Legend
Posts: 4976
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:49 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby PSL184 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:34 pm

Can't really help anymore than that mate - I started to read the rules and regs and found them so far from what I belived a concours car to be that I gave up :-)
[sig]8426[/sig]

Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php

Kevin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7596
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:00 am
MMOC Member: No

Postby Kevin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:26 pm

PSL184 wrote:I believe MMOC concours cars have to be driven to shows.
That is correct its a requirement of the MMOC concours competitions, but as mentioned that does not apply to some other competitions.
Cheers

Kevin
Lovejoy 1968 Smoke Grey Traveller
http://morris-minor-conversions.co.uk
Herts Branch Contact & Liaison
Herts Branch Website http://hertsbranchmmoc.webeden.co.uk
Moderator MMOC 44706

ssnjimb
Minor Fan
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:41 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby ssnjimb » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:58 am

i imagine keeping a minor in concours condition is very stressfull i certainly would not be able to cope with that.

Jamie
I own a 1974 MG Midget 1275 in Teal Blue "Midget" is what we call him and he is in very good to excellant condition "midget" is a Chrome bumper/Round Wheel arch model.

RogerRust
Minor Legend
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:10 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby RogerRust » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:03 pm

I entered Concours because it was fun and because the other entrants were good fun.

It wasn't at all snooty and you don't need a perfect car to enter. Tidy yes, original if poss and clean.

My 61 was neither original or perfect, but it was tidy and did well in the lower classes of Concours. I found the comments from the judges useful in gradually improving the car.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it and I believe we need to keep some really good cars going to shows.

But I have to admit I sold it in the end because I wasn't using it enough. I don't know how to avoid that trap!
Image

This message board is like a family - you can't choose the other members!! But remember engine oil is thicker than water.

Ian46
Minor Fan
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:51 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby Ian46 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:31 pm

Some years ago when I was younger and had Minors as every-day transport, I visitied Rallies on a regular basis, as you do, and was just fascinated by the cars then taking part in the Concours displays.

You could say I was inspired by the apparent perfection. Here were cars in perfect condition that were made before I was born and I wanted one. However I couldn't afford one.

So I purchased a wreck of a '53 Minor (a real life 'barn find') and then spent six years restoring it (off and on, changing jobs, moving house, bringing up a young family etc., ). I had to push my limited skills and learn new to see what I could produce on my own in my garage. (Is that a 'man' thing?), but I had a vision of what I wanted.

I broke the car down into component parts and set myself the target of getting each part up to my 100% satisfaction (originality wise). My thinking was, if I try for 100% and achieve 90 then that is better than aiming for 90% and realising 80.

When the next MMOC rally was on I would go and look at the Concours car for inspiration, confirmation that I was proceeding with my restoration details correctly and quickly realised the importance of these 3D representatives of the marque. Seeing the cars in the flesh is so much better than refering to photographs or illustrations in books, and I have always found the owners very helpful.

And so it went on for years and years until finally I was ready to take the car out for its first appearance. Working on my own in a small garage for so long I realised (when the car was sitting in an open field) that I hadn't actually looked at the car from some distance away. It was all I had hoped for.

The judges thought so too and the car scored enough points to win the competition, ending up being classed as a Masters Class car (one above Concours).

Because I'm slightly mad and loved the car, I drove it whenever I could; to work, to other Rallies, to the NEC for display purposes, to the beach. I would try to aim for good weather but if it rained whilst I was out I would clean it when I got home. Dreaded stone chips were touched up as they appeared. If you want a showroom condition car you have to put in the time and most of that is underneath!

Before an 'official' appearance I would spend a week of evenings cleaning the car, drive it to the event, compete in Concours and then drive home.

I found I now had enthusiasts coming up to me, asking me for advice with restoration enquiries and that is truly a satisfying feeling, being able to give something back to club members whilst enjoying what you do.

Remember as our cars get older and we replace or change parts over a period of time, the cars gradually move away from a standard appearance and specification to become something else. Call it lost knowledge. Polished radiators, fitting boot handles upside down, fitting incorrect front bumpers to Series II cars are some of my pet hates. Are owners aware? They may not care? But a new owner of that car may one day.

So don't knock the current Concours entrants for being stuffy. They have acquired a lot of detailed knowledge of their particular model that could just be made available to anyone of you out there contemplating a restoration and want to know what the cars were originally like. All you have to do is ask.

Rant over! Back on the naughty step!

Regards Ian

teenoes
Minor Friendly
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:47 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby teenoes » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:54 pm

That is a rather good one Ian...
JWK

[sig]7991[/sig]

Ian46
Minor Fan
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:51 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby Ian46 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:25 pm

Did I kill the thread?

Ian

Dean
Minor Legend
Posts: 2140
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 9:41 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby Dean » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:32 pm

I think everyone is struggling to come up with a better response Ian. An excellent post :)
My Minor:
A Clarendon Grey 1953 4 Door Series II.
MMOC - 66535



MarkyB
Minor Maniac
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:18 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby MarkyB » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:17 pm

The ideal of the breed is a great idea but I spoke to someone who dropped out of doing Concours recently.
He started because he thought it would "be a laugh".
He competed for quite a while but in the end the politics and something about the main judge resigning made him give it up.

The idea of a perfect example is appealing, in a way, but in fact, Concours cars are a lot better than what came off the end off the assembly line.

So what is it all about at the end of the day?

PSL184
Minor Legend
Posts: 4976
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:49 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby PSL184 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:45 pm

MarkyB wrote: So what is it all about at the end of the day?
Shiney nuts :-)
MarkyB wrote:The idea of a perfect example is appealing, in a way, but in fact, Concours cars are a lot better than what came off the end off the assembly line.
Exactly - It seems to me to be all about making something that never was :roll:
[sig]8426[/sig]

Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php

badobsession
Minor Fan
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:11 am
MMOC Member: No

Postby badobsession » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Exactly - It seems to me to be all about making something that never was :roll:[/quote]

exactly customs :lol: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:


SCOTTISH BRANCH CHAIRMAN .

PSL184
Minor Legend
Posts: 4976
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:49 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby PSL184 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:01 pm

Tut tut tut - The purists wil never accept their pristine concours cars are "customised" :-)
[sig]8426[/sig]

Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php

MarkyB
Minor Maniac
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:18 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby MarkyB » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:20 pm

Brilliant, those damned hotrodders should be banned, the splitters.
This inner sill has a full coat of paint!
That's not original, the horror, the horror I can't cope.
Goodnight.

Ian46
Minor Fan
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:51 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby Ian46 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:02 pm

PSL your terminology is a little off.

To me a customised car is one altered from standard to suite ones own taste, needs etc. To rebuild a car to the condition it came from a factory is restoration. The very nature of the exercise is obviously not going to appeal to everyone but is very satisfying to some.

And why can't customised cars be created to Concours standards and shown alongside?

Why does there have to be an 'us and them' stand off?

Ian

PSL184
Minor Legend
Posts: 4976
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:49 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby PSL184 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:04 pm

Ian
My statements are a bit tongue in cheek and are not meant to be "off" in any way - merely a little exhasberation maybe !!
I would agree that customised cars created to concours standard could be held in equally high regard but then we come down to the discussion about what is and isn't concours again, don't we...?
For me (and the bit I don't fully understand) is that concours cars are as close to the factory condition as possible. I have 2 Travellers of which one is totally standard and in the hands of 1 owner has covered 36000 miles. The other, in the hands of two owners has covered 58000 miles. Neither would win a concourse competition cause although they are as they left the factory they do not have shiney nuts and bolts and polished floorpans (even though one is still on original 1960 crossply tyres).
I have previously owned a Triumph Herald which had done 18000 miles, again one owner and only ever on the road for four years of its life - I entered a concourse with that and got absolutely no where for the same reasons as above!!!
I'm all for anyone who wants to polish and shine the life out of their cars but for me - that isn't what concours should be about and certainly not one that has any amount of remedial work or restoration.
[sig]8426[/sig]

Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php

IaininTenbury
Minor Legend
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:09 am
MMOC Member: No

Postby IaininTenbury » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:13 am

I'm a bit late joining in this thread, but here goes!
I agree with most of the points made here, and can see that a well preserved original car would not do very well in concours. I think really that we are looking at two different ideals here, which really should be judged in different ways. The current concours being 'the best restored car to original spec', a worthy and satisfying aim for the owner when restoring a car. I read once that concours standard would have been how the factory prepared a car for a motor show rather than off the production line which was interesting.
However I feel there should be a class for, say, 'best original car' ie: unrestored but very well preserved. There's enough of these cars around, and as PSL says they wouldn't stand up to a restored car with new paint and chrome etc, but they are important historical reference points and really should be appreciated more on the show scene.

Example: I have a '49 MM saloon. It's pretty tatty, been round the world afew times mileage wise, and the sills are dropping off. I'm currently collecting the parts for this to restore it - missing bits of original trim etc. I'd like to do this to a very high standard - as Ian46 says aim for 100% and be happy with 90% sort of thing. The result, if I make a good enough job of it may be suitable for entering concours with, which I may well have a go at.

Example 2: I had a '61 saloon in black with 36,000 miles on it. Been off the road since '82 when the lady owner gave up driving. It had had the front wings replaced (could be regarded as consumables on Minors!) but other than that was as original as you could expect. Leatherinterior a bit worn, but nice, original carpets (different style to the repro ones you get now), original paint (polished up reasonably well, but wearing thin in places) original slightly textured silver paint on the kick plates, (about half way between smooth and hammerite). Engine was still badly sprayed in green, including dynamo and starter, and when you took the oil filter off, the canister was unpainted on the side closest to the engine as the paint hadn't got round there.
In short it was an exellent example of how Minors were made. I had to repair the front of the sill and crossmember ends, but did this so you couldn't tell it had been done (butt welded, spot welded etc and making drain holes as the originals, in the new sill bits that didn't have them). I kept the car for a while, and took it to a few club events where it was completely unremarked on, being an averagely shiny not very special looking black saloon. Hardly anyone noticed that it was still in its original paint (other than the front wings) with its original coach line. It was more useful to me as a restorer, to see how an unmessed with car should look like and I eventually sold it. I expect its been repainted by now.

In contrast, a few years back I was talking to a concours entrant with a near faultless saloon (and as a restorer I can pick fault in most Minors!)
who admitted that during the rebuild, he'd decided to change the colour to another standard colour that he preferred. Wether that was taken into account in the judging I've no idea, but I know I'd got the more original car.

Anyway, ramble over, but I think theres room for both the fully restored perfect concours car, and a well preserved original car, but they are a very different class of car.
cheers
Iain
Fairmile Restorations.

'49 MM, '53 convertible, '55 van, and a '64 van.

Marina p.u., '56 Morris Isis Traveller, a '59 Morris JB van, a'66 J4 van, a '54 Land Rover, Land Rover 130, Renault 5, '36Railton, '35 Hudson, a Mk1 Transit and a Sherpa Camper...

A car can be restored at any time, but is only original once!

LouiseM
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4419
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:11 pm
MMOC Member: No

Postby LouiseM » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:49 am

Some very good points Ian. It would be nice to see a judging class along the lines of 'most original' vehicle as most of the concours cars that I've seen have seemed to me to be heavily restored, at great cost, with very few 'original' parts. I'd much rather see a car that was original but 'lived in'. I can appreciate the reasons why someone would want a concours example but I have to admit that they don't personally appeal to me. At my very first National rally (around twenty years ago) I saw a man brushing dust off his tyres using a toothbrush and this had the effect of turning me off concours for life! :-? Still, each to their own, but no reason why there shouldn't be room for both 'original' and 'concours' judging classes on the rally field :D


Eric - 1971 Traveller


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest