What would that be?

for those with Series MM sidevalve cars produced between September 1948 and February 1953

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pradeepprabhua
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What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:18 am

Engine starts, have adjusted the idle speed screw. Engine stalls then sometimes picks up the revs again. Taken the car for trial round (3-4 times), notice lack of power.
Since two weeks have not taken out, trying to find what could be the reason.

Case 1: After the engine stops after running at idle say for 5 minutes then it starts at first kick.
If the engine is started again after couple of hours doesn’t start. Need to remove the plugs clean them and put them back and then after couple of tries it picks up.
I notice that the cylinder 3 & 4 spark plugs are clean in comparison with cylinder 1 &2 (see pictures below).

Case 2: when engine runs and stalls (at standstill)
•I removed the HT lead from cylinder 1 – No changes in rpm/revs
•I take the HT lead close ( say 3-4mm or 0.118/0.157 inch) to the plug, i get a clear blue spark and the revs pick up. As i connect it the revs go down again. If i remove it and keep it close than the revs go up.

Case 3: yesterday cleaned all the plugs, started the engine, it ran well at idle. Removed one by one the HT leads and all cylinders were working well (at least at stand still). Ran the engine for 5-10 minutes, raised the rpm couple of times and stopped the engine.
Removed the spark plugs and the result/physical inspection is as shown in pictures

what could be the reason??
Is it the excess fuel mixture to cylinder 1 &2 ? - how to adjust?
Could it be any problem in HT leads/wires?
Any tappet settings problem ?
Any problem inside the cylinder?

what should I check ? Please help.

The plugs make is DENSO - W16FS-U.

plug1-cyl 1[frame]Image[/frame]

plug2-cyl 2[frame]Image[/frame]

plug3-cyl 3[frame]Image[/frame]

plug4-cyl 4[frame]Image[/frame]


REGARDS
PRADEEP
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


drivewasher
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Re: What would that be?

Postby drivewasher » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:29 am

drawing air on onlet manifold at 3&4 cylinder and possibly a duff plug the one that made no difference when you removed lead off cyl 1


beero
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Re: What would that be?

Postby beero » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:30 pm

Have you tried a compression tester? What readings?


mike.perry
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Re: What would that be?

Postby mike.perry » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:58 pm

Try changing the distributor cap, a cracked cap can do strange things
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pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:50 pm

Hello all,
inter changed the plug to other cylinder, no changes.

Cleaned the distributor cap which had some-little carbon powder.

removed all the plugs, disconnected the fuel pump -electrically and the coil main lead.

checked dry compression
cylinder 1- 100 psi
cylinder 2- 100 psi
cylinder 3- 100 psi
cylinder 4- 105 psi

then put a spoon of oil into each one by one and took compression reading

cylinder 1- 120 psi
cylinder 2- 100 psi
cylinder 3- 100 psi
cylinder 4- 105 psi

The cold engine is so very difficult to start. I could not start the engine because of overflowing of fuel.
will try starting it again tomorrow.
I remember the mechanic set the tappet 0.015 after over hauling, in spite of the value mentioned on the cover as 0.017.

what next??

regards
pradeep
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


mike.perry
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Re: What would that be?

Postby mike.perry » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Tappets should be 0.018 cold.
Try running engine in the dark so you can see any stray sparks
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drivewasher
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Re: What would that be?

Postby drivewasher » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:28 pm

did the carbon in the dissy cap form lines like a pencil line? fi it did then the caps knackered causing your timed spark to go astray


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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:27 pm

Hello,
sorry for the delay in writing. Checked again as informed. After several tries for failed starting,called the mechanic. he told that the distributor rotor arm is faulty or leaking. replaced with new one. then he tried started once. then he said the new plugs which i had mentioned earlier in the post are faulty. damn, he put some old plugs whose gap was lesser than the denso ones. iam sure the plugs are ok, as i have checked them for spark on my bike.
I had to leave on some work and my dad continued along with him for staring the engine.
he then changed the main coil by telling its not giving enough current ( actually its the voltage that matters here).
have checked the old coil and matches the ohmic value with the new one ( both primary and secondary coil)
He started the engine checking the carby and just left mentioning now its ok " its starting"
Came back home in the evening only to see its not starting again.
I have done tappet setting to 0.18 in cold (set as mentioned in the book one at a time with the other one fully opened)
Now the engine starts with choke ON and dies after 10- 15 second because of excess fuel.
If I close the choke after start then the engine just goes down immediately.
if I just turn the ignition and crank it just wont start. I have the SU H1 horizontal carby with EK needle. Is it something to do with carb jet adjustment or something which Iam missing or checking the wrong place.

have tried starting with the butter fly valve completely closed and also with the slightly opened with the help of the abjusting screw. is it that the fuel is not entering the engine system?
it feels like iam So close yet So far. Please help what i should be checking in the carb or what type of adjustment i have to do.

regards
pradeep
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


mike.perry
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Re: What would that be?

Postby mike.perry » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:52 am

Your compressions are low, I would expect 130. Did you remove all the plugs when you checked?
Check Carb settings. Remove air filter (oil bath?) and check that piston is lifting and dropping on to the bridge. Replace filter
Wind mixture nut fully up then lower the nut 12 flats. That should be close enough to start the engine.
Is the carb dripping petrol?
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pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:28 am

Hello Mr Mike,

The rings are new but not original ones (as informed while purchasing - these are the ones people have been using during replacement). probably will have to buy them from MMOC authorised vendors next time or ASAP.
Yes I had removed all the plugs while doing the compression check. It's an oil bath which i haven't fixed during the start-up tests now. the carb piston drops down... but not instantly there is no spring in the piston chamber when i bought it as second hand.
whats 12 flats ?? ( is it the thread of the nuts / or how many turns down??)
no there is no dripping of petrol in the carb at the base/bottom jet nut.

I will do the told tests and get back here.

Regards
Pradeep
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


mike.perry
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Re: What would that be?

Postby mike.perry » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:32 am

There is no spring in a Series MM carb
12 flats = 2 complete turns
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pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:52 pm

Hi,
After the tests and settings managed to start only after the extra adapters which increases the height of the plugs ( see in picture circled red). now the ignition point is not exactly inside the engine at the top of the head.
This is the only way it starts now :( . one more observation made after the adapter implementation is once we stop the engine and start again ( say in a minutes time then it starts only if we throttle/ accelerate or else it does not). if we start the next day it starts immediately.[frame]Image[/frame]

Is it due the problem of rings ? and may be there is little oil splashing on the plugs due to which it was not able to start earlier?
the results of compression test made earlier are also low.

Regards
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


sparesman
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Re: What would that be?

Postby sparesman » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:49 pm

has anyone pointed out that the plugs you have are the protruded centre type which are not right for the MM.You need Champion L10 or L86 or NGK B6HS
1952 MM 2dr saloon in Thames Blue UNO212
1953 S11 Traveller in Birch Grey - oldest survivor ? Export model now reg PPO924
1953 S11 Traveller in Black - 3rd oldest PPX344

pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:07 pm

Hi,

I am sure someone would have mentioned when i had posted first with plug pictures - then i had put DENSO W16FS-U plugs without adaptor where i had similar problem on starting. A local mechanic suggested to use adapter to which i put bosch W7BC plugs which has short thread.
I took the car out, say after a mile it stopped, then it did not start at all.. waited for say 20 minutes then a continues cranking and throttling it luckily started.. and again after it stopped say after half mile...somehow managed to get it back home. i have fit a water pump(davis craig EBP 15) for water as shown in picture to solve the problem on overheating. the temperature during trial run was 70 degrees.

All the while i have observed drop in oil pressure too. cold engine at start is say around 30-35 psi... after say 2-4 minutes it drops to 15 ( guage reading is just above 10psi)..have installed a pressure switch light indication for warning.
in one of my earlier post have mentioned the pressure drop. now that's a mistake made by our mechanic /us of not taking the bearing & crank measurements while overhauling.
Any suggestions on this .

How difficult is it to get a refurbished side valve head engine from the sources in UK?
getting all the spares of my existing engine is ok, but unavailability of a good mechanic and i too keep travelling on work has raised an alarm of how to get my CAR on road.

Please advice[frame]Image[/frame]
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:41 pm

After many trials on road found the engine is crying to take the load of the car. The oil pressure when engine is hot was just above 10 PSI. The water temperature around 85 degree Celsius. The car could not make it above 25-30 KMPH. The over flooding of fuel was somehow adjusted from various website sources. After that it was very much evident there was oil coming in the cylinder because of wrong rings. The compression was low between 100- 110 psi. As we were misguided rather now we say -learnt the bitter way during our restoring –overhauling of the engine, we decided to strip the engine again and start from scratch.
09-Feb-2014
After disconnecting the entire engine auxiliary-The engine was brought down.
Dismantled the engine: Cylinder Head, Engine Sump, Oil Pump, Pulley, and Marked and made a note of timing gear and chain.
Removed the connecting rod bearings and main bearings and observed the following.
• There were copper shims put /inserted for the connecting rod bearings.
• The white metal of the bearings had completely gone. ( we had not observed this earlier as we were told that’s ok)
• The name & size mentioned on the con rod bearings is “PV” & “+10”.
• There were wax paper type shims put /inserted for the Main bearings.
• The white metal of the bearings had completely gone.
• The name & size mentioned on the Main bearings is “PV” & “+20”.
• The pistons put are from an indian Company “IPL – India piston Ltd”
• Markings on piston – STD, IPL 5A & 1.0018. I have no idea on what 1.0018 means.
• There are light scoring marks at the gudgeon pin area. But not able to find any scoring on the Bore/sleeve.
• There is a sleeve in the bore area.

Removed the crankshaft from the Block, Removed the distributor rod Key and removed the Cam shaft. Valves and valve guides were removed.
Some pictures below

1. connecting rod bearings
[frame]Image[/frame]

2. Connecting bearing pic2
[frame]Image[/frame]

3. Worn Out bearing[frame]Image[/frame]
4. main bearing marking[frame]Image[/frame]

12-Feb-2014
The block, Crankshaft, bearings, Valves, pistons taken to a place having proper testing and measuring equipments. The below are the readings.
Crankshaft : Main bearing area – 41.40 mm = 1.629921 inches
Connecting Rod bearing area – 39.60 mm = 1.5590 inches
Bore : 57mm =2.244 mm and varies either < 57mm or > 57mm ( there might be some ovality in the bore)


The Gap between the two ends of the compression ring (when inserted in the bore) = >3 <5 mm = >0.11811 < 0.1968 inch.
The mechanic mentioned that we will have to regrind the crankshaft if we are going to next size bearings - iam not that happy with the re-grinding.
(Is regrinding required please advice?)
We have managed to get +20 connecting rod bearings from an old cars spare supplier.
Hope these are the one to be going inside the engine please advice
Now we want the following and please correct me if Iam going the wrong way
+30 size main bearings – hope these are available at club spares or from fellow members of MMOC
First oversize pistons57.025mm + 2.2451 inches with rings along with it – Hope these are available at club spares from fellow members of MMOC
The Hone the bore from existing bore/sleeve to +10 to fit the oversize pistons.
Assemble the engine.
Is this OK? Is regrinding of crankshaft necessary? When is it necessary?
Shall post few more pics next
Thanks in advance.
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:47 pm

Hello,
Piston pictures below after removing could see oil deposits.[frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame]
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:56 pm

Scoring mark on the piston - 2 pistons have these. The mechanic also said that the pistons are worn out.[frame]Image[/frame]

Gap at the ring end.[frame]Image[/frame]

Main Bearing pic[frame]Image[/frame]
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:59 pm

Block Picture After opening the Head[frame]Image[/frame]

Cylinder head.[frame]Image[/frame]
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head


drivewasher
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Re: What would that be?

Postby drivewasher » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:19 pm

A crankshaft regrind depends on the dimensions or condition of the crankshaft journals both bige end (con rod) and main bearings. If they are out of round or scored due to lack of lubrication or simply worn out, then you have to regrind as little as possible off to get the journals true again but down to the next available oversized bearing shells.
The same applies to the bores of the block and in relation to the oversize of pistons & ring sets available.

I'm a bit rusty on engine rebuilds, but that one looks like it's been put together from all sorts of sized stuff, made to fit with whatever was available.

Don't be offended but by the questions you could be out of your depth here. But we admire a tryer! Lets see what others say & keep posting.


pradeepprabhua
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Re: What would that be?

Postby pradeepprabhua » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:03 am

drivewasher wrote:A crankshaft regrind depends on the dimensions or condition of the crankshaft journals both bige end (con rod) and main bearings. If they are out of round or scored due to lack of lubrication or simply worn out, then you have to regrind as little as possible off to get the journals true again but down to the next available oversized bearing shells.
The same applies to the bores of the block and in relation to the oversize of pistons & ring sets available.

I'm a bit rusty on engine rebuilds, but that one looks like it's been put together from all sorts of sized stuff, made to fit with whatever was available.

Don't be offended but by the questions you could be out of your depth here. But we admire a tryer! Lets see what others say & keep posting.
Hello Drivewasher,
Thanks for the feedback, The Crankshaft bearing are pics are attached below and the dimensions are in my post above. please go through.
I got this engine from a yard and was told it was removed from an running car. during our first overhaul i was out of country and the mechanic told its only the valve and the piston rings to be renewed and did so by my family (dad & Bro).
The engine was put inside the engine bay the day i returned.
With all the if's and but's want to get a good job done and need everyone's valuable feedbacks. :D .[frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame][frame][frame]Image[/frame]

regards
[*]Pradeep Prabhu[*]
1951 Series MM - 2door - side valve head



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