Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

for those with Series MM sidevalve cars produced between September 1948 and February 1953
gtt1951
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Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:52 pm

At last I have got the fuel system and water cooling sorted out (temporary plumbing solution) and have been running the engine, adjusting the timing and fuel mixture (having fitted a refurbished carb taken from my spare engine).
All that aspect seems very good now but I then noticed a fair amount of oil running down the side of the sump under the carb location.
It looks to me like the seal (if fitted) on the oil filter mounting/holder, is leaking under pressure (at idle this is about 45-50 psi).
I have this type of fitting
IMG_20190225_110953.jpg
IMG_20190225_110953.jpg (1.25 MiB) Viewed 915 times
and the leak is here
IMG_20190425_171117.jpg
IMG_20190425_171117.jpg (1.47 MiB) Viewed 915 times
Do I just undo the 2 bolts holding the green part of the oil filter fitting to remove the unit and then make up a gasket?
Nothing about removal of this item in the British Leyland/BMC workshop manual - I'm sure I had a 3rd party workshop manual that covers the Series MM, but cannot find the book at the moment :(

George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

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philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:00 pm

Undo the two nuts, remove the two spring washers, remove the filter head, clean up both the block and filter head gasket faces, fit new gasket slightly greased, fit filter head, spring washers and nuts.

Even better fit the spin on filter head:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Massey-Fergu ... Sw-ndTmzWF

The nuts on the original filter head are too far from the block to be of real use holding the filter head gasket face to the block especially with the relieving and exposed studs. With the filter head type in the above link - the nuts are transmitting pressure directly to the filter head gasket face.


gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:25 pm

Hello Phil,
Thanks, I've put that tractor item in my watch list, just in case. I'm trying to keep this car as original as possible so will go with the current oil filter arrangement for now (already got the paper element).
Just been under the bonnet again to check on the fittings and it is 2 bolts rather than nuts on studs
IMG_20190427_125223.jpg
IMG_20190427_125223.jpg (1.99 MiB) Viewed 883 times
Just hope that they come out when I attempt to remove them.
Is there any reason I shouldn't use a modern "engine flush" additive before doing an oil change on a Side Valve engine?
The engine is an "official" replacement with its brass/copper plaque, Number C95573.
IMG_20190322_164016.jpg
IMG_20190322_164016.jpg (1.12 MiB) Viewed 883 times

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

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philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:45 pm

Removing the bolts should be no problem as the inner end is always in the oil mist of the sump.
I would not use a flushing oil as you may dislodge more than required and possibly block oil galleries.
I would use a cheap but satisfactory engine oil, run it for a few miles and when the engine is hot drain the engine oil.
There is enough detergent in modern/current use oils to clean out the engine and oil galleries without resorting to a specific flushing oil.
It would do no harm to drop the sump and clean out any residue/sludge found and then use the cheap oil. A must if the engine has been stood for some time.

Regular oil and filter changes is the most effective way of keeping the inside of the engine clean and sludge free. Regular engine oil and filer changes also helps reduce wear between moving parts.

Go not rely on the covered mileage alone to set the oil changes - stationary oil can and will attract moisture.

Phil


gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:34 pm

Phil,
Thanks again for your valuable help. I did, after all, buy that "tractor" adapter which I may use in the future.
Better get a sump gasket set if I need to drop the sump for a clean - ESM list a "conversion" gasket set, is this what I need to get (their part number SV108) which includes the sump gaskets?
George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

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philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:36 pm

http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... tc-p830036

That's the one.

Just lightly grease the gaskets/cork seals and all will be well.

No need for sealer.


sirrom918
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby sirrom918 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:07 pm

Follow VERY carefully the instructions regarding the fitting of the rear main bearing cap Cork Strip - section A.2 Removal and Replacement of Sump pages A.7 and A.8 of the British Leyland / BMC Workshop Manual (14th Edition).

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:28 pm

I have just fitted new sump gasket/seals from ESM and there were no instructions at all?
The rear cork seal you will find needs the step cutting to fit the gap between the rear main cap and crankcase. I found this recess to be twice as wide on one side to the other!
So cut carefully as you only get one go at it!
I pulled the sump down onto its greased gaskets using mainly the bolts that tighten into the cast iron threads then just nipped up the ones that go into the timing cover as it would be easy to strip them.
Once the sump is in position and hanging on a couple.of bolts a torch can be used to shine up the drain plug hole to make sure the cork seal is still in position before nipping up.

Alan
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gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:25 am

Thank you Simon and Alan, looks like I need to take some care in doing the sump gaskets.
I think I'll attempt to do this work whilst the car is parked over the burnt ground in my front garden (had to burn some of my daughter's old wooden den here), unless I can't get the clearance to get under and undo bolts.
Regards, George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:55 pm

It never rains but it pours!
Got under the car to see what sockets I would need for sump bolts and the sump drain plug.
Sump drain plug is neither Whitworth nor Metric - will have to go through some of my other sockets.

Sump retaining bolts - the Whitworth 3/16 socket fits the head nicely, although the 11mm metric is close behind.
As my sockets are 1/2" drive, I will have difficulties in using them on the bolts at the sides of the sump - the 2 in the front are easier access.

Now for the bad bit - the bolt, at the pulley end, on the driver's side of the engine was loose and I could turn it with the socket I was holding in my fingers - guess what? The M8 fine thread in the engine block is STRIPPED! Just like the M8 fine on the alloy dynamo mounting bracket.
another stripped thread.jpg
another stripped thread.jpg (455.29 KiB) Viewed 803 times
I won't be dropping the sump, just yet, as I may have to take the engine out to reline the thread with the V-coil repair kit I bought to do the dynamo mounting - there may not be enough room, under the car, to use an electric drill to drill out the old thread and then tap a special oversize one for the V-coil.
On the left is the original bolt that came out without much turning, a new M8 fine bolt on the right
sump bolt on left.jpg
sump bolt on left.jpg (485.24 KiB) Viewed 803 times
There is a possible problem, however, as the bolts I bought for the other job/s have a larger hexagonal head
head comparison.jpg
head comparison.jpg (512.7 KiB) Viewed 803 times
I'm assuming that all the remaining sump bolts are M8 fine - but maybe not and the one that "fell out" was the wrong bolt.
ESM don't have anything described as a Sump Bolt.

Any guidance as to what size the bolts should be?

George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:30 pm

Just put my sump back on and it looks like your bolt that 'fell out' is the correct one and the two fixings at the front screw into the alloy timing cover, the material being a lot softer is quite vulnerable to being stripped!
Like you, I found them an odd size but did manage with my 1/2 drive sockets.
If you are going to put an insert in the damaged hole would you not go for the same thread to use the original bolt?

Alan
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philthehill
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby philthehill » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:25 pm

Whilst not original I would fit Allen headed bolts of the same thread with suitable flat and spring washers under the heads.

You can get long Allen keys suitable for 1/2" drive socket sets.

As regards the stripped thread - there is no need to remove the engine, sump or timing cover to fit the Heli-coil insert. Drill a clearance hole through the sump for the Heli-coil, drill and tap the timing cover using the Heli-coil drill and tap making sure that the Heli-coil is inserted sufficiently to clear the sump.


gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:08 pm

Alan,
If you look at Phil's reply the answer it there. With the V-coil (heli-coil) system, you are supplied with a drill that takes out the original thread, a tap that is used to cut a new thread that the v-coil is then threaded into, the result being a "new" original thread hole of original sizing.
Looks like I didn't write up the dynamo bracket problem with method of fixing - I'll have to do that next and you will see how I fixed the stripped thread there (also an aluminium alloy).
Here is the link
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=70096

George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

sirrom918
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby sirrom918 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 pm

The sump bolt on the left with the deep head is a genuine original and the sizes would have originally been:
The two front and two back sump bolts M8 fine (1.00mm pitch) x 22mm (7/8")
The eight other sump bolts M8 fine (1.00mm pitch) x 19mm (3/4")
The heads were originally 3/16" Whit / 1/4" BSF

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:32 pm

Perhaps I didn't make that very clear! What I meant was to use a threaded insert so the final size for the bolt to fit in is M8 - so the original fixing could be used.

Alan
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gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Wed May 01, 2019 1:27 pm

alanworland wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:32 pm
Perhaps I didn't make that very clear! What I meant was to use a threaded insert so the final size for the bolt to fit in is M8 - so the original fixing could be used.

Alan
Sorry Alan about misunderstanding.
In the meantime, I've just got out from under the car, with a crick in my neck, trying to find a socket that will fit the sump plug
Sump Plug and Jiggle Pin.jpg
Sump Plug and Jiggle Pin.jpg (428.68 KiB) Viewed 732 times
With no success - not Whitworth, Metric or AF. I don't have any other socket sets (except for the set for modern oil filter housing removal, and they didn't fit).
I think I have some BSF spanners, somewhere - the only thing left to try. The gearbox drain plug looks the same
Gearbox drain plug.jpg
Gearbox drain plug.jpg (381.38 KiB) Viewed 732 times
Not sure what the unpainted rectangle with a hole in it was for.

Another thing - I received the screw-on adapter with a filter. This looks like it will not work, due to the length of the screw-in filter - it will hit the tie plate. Will need to get a shorter filter can if I do go this way.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Wed May 01, 2019 5:38 pm

Can't remember the exact size but one of my Big whitworth rings spanners fitted both engine and gearbox drain plugs.
The hole in the gearbox housing is just a drain point if/should/when the input shaft leaks oil.

Alan
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gtt1951
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby gtt1951 » Wed May 01, 2019 11:27 pm

Looks like my earlier reply didn't get "posted" and the link timed out.
Got back under the car and tried some ring and open-ended spanners.
A 7/8th AF open-ended spanner just about fitted on, but a very tight fit on the flats.
Strange as the 7/8 AF socket I tried earlier, and then again after the spanner test, was too big.
Looks like the sump nut may have been a bit rounded off - it certainly looks a bit abused.
The worrying thing is that the plug was loose - just hope it isn't another mangled thread!

I also offered up an adjustable spanner and then measured the jaw opening - 7/8" .

Being finger loose/tight, I can get to drain the engine oil, but will it all hold together after I replace the plug - there are no sump plugs, of this vintage, listed on the ESM site.
There is no sign of a leak at the sump plug.
Tomorrow, I'll try to get further under the car and try out spanners on the gearbox drain plug.
G.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

alanworland
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby alanworland » Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 am

I can remember Mike Perry (in Club) had a batch of gearbox/engine drain plugs made.

Alan
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sirrom918
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Re: Oil leak from Side-valve oil filter mounting

Postby sirrom918 » Thu May 02, 2019 10:58 am

It's highly likely the drain plug of an MG T Type and MG Series Y will be from the same Morris Motors / Nuffield Organisation parts bin. Certainly worth checking for size if you happen to live near to NTG Motor Services Ltd in Ipswich or a Moss Europe branch in the UK - London, Bradford, Bristol and Manchester.

http://www.ntgservices.co.uk/contents/e ... -Sump.html

http://www.ntgservices.co.uk/contents/e ... arbox.html


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