'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

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romfordian
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'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by romfordian »

I was quite surprised not to already see a thread on this so thought I'd drop this pebble in and see what ripples showed up. CCW have an article suggesting that the DVLA will now start applying the reg's for modified classics more literally, and that depending on interpretation this could lead to fairly minor modifications (certainly as far as we're concerned cars that fit into Sport Modified as well as out and out Custom) absolutely guaranteeing a Q registration plate, paying for road tax, £450 for its MOT as well as a requirement that the car is trailered rather than driven to it. And that's actually the good bit - there is also the potential for your Minor to be deregistered at all for road use pending you passing a test that a Minor would find it really impossible to pass, for example collapsible steering column, modern lighting requirements, emissions, etc.
For anyone who can't lay their hands on a copy of CCW, there's an (extremely long) thread on this over on one of the VW forums at http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=618998. Apologies for being alarmist, and I'd love to hear a different opinion, but my interpretation of the rules that apparently will now be applied is that something as innocuous as JLH's gearbox cover for the Ford type 9 would actually now mean a definite Q plate at best or deregistration at worst.

PS - note that the VW forum is a little more...'free'... in posting style than is allowed here and there is some dodgy language in the thread. You have been warned :oops:
bmcecosse
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by bmcecosse »

There is a thread discussing this somewhere around .... It shouldn't worry normal Minor owners too much - seems to only affect cars where fairly major surgery is applied to the chassis/body ?
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romfordian
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by romfordian »

Well as I said I'm happy to be wrong, but your interpretation differs significantly from mine! The way I read it, any modification to the chassis whatsoever puts you in the HIVA camp. Any mod to the bulkhead or the trans tunnel also appears to qualify (which means every one of us with a five speed conversion).
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by leyther8008 »

Yep it's a scary read isnt it, I would like to know how the body chop bit would be applied to vans as they arn't strictly monocoque as opposed to the cars doest that mean I can chop the bulkhead on a van to fit a bigger engine/gearbox but you cant in a car?
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by PSL184 »

I would interpre it as "structural modification" in which case the gearbox cover is exempt as it is just that, a cover, and not a structural "tunnel" part of the bodyshell.
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by theminorsite »

leyther8008 wrote:Yep it's a scary read isnt it, I would like to know how the body chop bit would be applied to vans as they arn't strictly monocoque as opposed to the cars doest that mean I can chop the bulkhead on a van to fit a bigger engine/gearbox but you cant in a car?
That's a classic (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) example of how invasive the rules actually have been for the whole time they've been in force, but just haven't been enforced in practice. It is said that the interpretation of the rules would be 'dealt with on a case by case basis', which to me means that they're happier to bring the weight of authority down on a single individual in tears at his predicament than they are to deal with a 10,000 strong owners club! It's possible that a ruling might be made which accepts a fundamental difference between a saloon and a van/pickup to account for what you say above, but you'd be barking mad to imagine that logic would prevail and vans would definitely get some sort of exemption. Only last week a 'ruling' was given on Beetle derivatives which clarifies the position on what constitutes the 'chassis' - instead of just the framework of the chassis members, the floorpan of the Beetle must also stay intact to constitute 'unmodified'. Remember that these rulings are essentially 'unchallengeable' and nobody needs to justify that they are 'correct' - it's simply 'thats the way it is, tough crap if you don't like it'.

What's keeping me awake at nights is the sheer level of naivete that's around about it. I'm not remotely meaning to criticise bemecosse personally, but his post earlier in the thread is exactly what I'm talking about in thinking that only the 'serious' modifiers are threatened here. Here's another example just off the top of my head to dispel that myth - if the rules are applied vigourously, as we are explicitly told they will be, every 'post-production convertible' that's currently running around is running on the last MOT it will ever get as it is now. Next time it's presented for MOT, it will at best get a Q registration and have to pay road tax. The tax isn't a biggie in the grand scheme of things, but do you want to hazard a guess at whats going to happen to the value of a fantastic convertible that was once a saloon, but this morning got itself a 'pretty' Q registration?!!
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jonathon
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by jonathon »

Difficult one is this Mike. If I'm truly honest, then as a road user I want to know that to the best of the MOT knowledge, that the majority of other cars using our roads are safe to opperate.
I'm in favour of new tests and not bothered about the cost too much.Paying road tax isn't really an issue either. However I see no reason why a car needs to loose its registration number (apart from DVLA selling it on for profit) the cars paperwork and tax disc will define the car as modified, so why the need for a Q plate.
Chop topped Minors, no problem with them either, some are well converted and as bad as they were when they left the factory , others are poorly executed and as such can represent danger to the person who has performed the work or to an unsuspecting purchaser. This argument obviously follows through to all modified cars (Minors), many of which are death traps, and a few are very well done indeed.
One cannot rely on owners to judge their own abilities at welding etc,nor the comments of other forum users, they need to be checked by qualified engineers at the time of registering for the road and each subsequent year.

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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by theminorsite »

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment about the need for someone pucka to check welding, Jonathon, and like you I've seen some ....errrrr.... 'unusual' home-modified car's at rallies and whatever which fill me with dread. It is undoubtedly true that some of these vehicles have been botched so badly that they are potentially a danger to everyone on the road, not just the poor sap driving them (I'm remembering some of the Landies I've seen at mudplugging days in particular). The fact that once a vehicle has passed on 'significantly' from its standard specification it needs a suitable inspection isn't in doubt, but what surprises, and in some way worries, me is the sheer size of the net that is cast. While its true that these rules have actually been about for nearly three decades, the facts on the ground are that they were so draconian in scope that they've never really been implemented, and its only now that they're going to be applied in a more literal way that some of our boys are going to get extremely burned.

Unless a more lenient specification is gained (which, lets face it, seems flippin' unlikely) all Minor's will be classed as a monocoque, and thus need an unmodified bodyshell in entirety in order to gain the five 'points' toward the total to carry an original reg. So, any of us that have fitted 5-speeds 'fail' that criteria, fine. All the post-prod convertibles have lost those five at a stroke too. But the 5-speed boys also lose the two for transmission, and presumably the one for engine too as I can't see many going to that bother without a power upgrade too. That's eight points gone, which means they can't qualify for their original reg because there aren't enough points left to get.

As to what that means in practice, I've - probably - not got a problem with losing tax exempt status, because I use my car regularly. Those who have a classic for high days and holidays might well disagree with that though - if their car does a couple of hundred miles a year, is it equitable to pay the same road tax as someone pounding the motorways day in day out? An inspection? Well yes I'll float with that too - if nothing else its a comfort blanket to owners that the work has been carried out to a sufficient standard. It sticks a bit in the throat that it costs so damned much, but what price safety and all that.

But here's the rub - the dreaded 'Q' plate. And having to wear it on yellow and black rather than black and silvers too. The fact is that many people, myself included, look unfavourably on 'Q' plated cars - they have an image problem born of the possibly ignorant belief that the car is a 'mongrel'. Kit cars built from bits of tin, imports that nobody can work out year of birth, that sort of thing. I think over time this view might change, possibly even 180 degrees. What now is a mark of poor quality might actually turn into a badge of pride, that the vehicle has passed stringent requirements. As I read somewhere, which of the following cars would attract interest on Fleabay - one with its original reg and saying 'its okay as long as you keep your head down and find a friendly MOT station', or one with a Q reg that says 'this thing has passed every inspection known to man'. The thing is, that perception will take time to change, and in the meantime owners will be unhappy with the way their cars are seen.

If it comes to me, so be it I guess. There isn't a great deal I can do about it, as I'm not about to 'reverse' all the work done to make what I've got so unique and pleasurable to use. Would I have done things differently had I known in advance? Dunno, really, but I'd probably have had a long hard look at what level of mods I could have got away with without needing a Q. That isn't the point I'm trying to make here, though. The people I'm thinking of are those who's mods are not as 'heavyweight' as mine, who didn't really consider themselves modified, and especially post-prod convertibles. There is also the rather terrifying prospect of cars not being able to get a reg mark at all because they have lost their original and cannot pass the modern requirements, but I haven't read enough yet to fully understand what the criteria are for that.
Mike
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jonathon
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by jonathon »

Does it state that this legislation is retrospective, or will be applied from now on. If the latter then fine as we will all know the working perameters, even if we do not necessarily agree with them.
The main issue for me is the reg no, simply no need whatsoever to loose this, and hopefully pressure for their retention may sway their opinion.
Agree Q plates do tend to worry people, my Golf convertible is a Q plate 'stolen secovered', but there is nothing different with it, engine matched body etc, just paperwork and the unreasonable desire to tell everyone that it might be dodgy. :D

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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by theminorsite »

jonathon wrote:Does it state that this legislation is retrospective, or will be applied from now on. If the latter then fine as we will all know the working perameters, even if we do not necessarily agree with them.
The main issue for me is the reg no, simply no need whatsoever to loose this, and hopefully pressure for their retention may sway their opinion.
Agree Q plates do tend to worry people, my Golf convertible is a Q plate 'stolen secovered', but there is nothing different with it, engine matched body etc, just paperwork and the unreasonable desire to tell everyone that it might be dodgy. :D
Nope, it will be applied 'retrospectively' in essence. I say it like that because it isn't really retrospective, in that the rules have actually been there for 27 years already, they just haven't been enforced.
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by theminorsite »

Actually, to fully quantify the above post, it's 'retrospective' for work done in the past twenty years. For works carried out before the SVA came into force, that's another grey area. Anything carried out since then is going to be subject.
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by jonathon »

I wonder if this modification to the monocoque goes as far as the type of welding. Ie original spot welds replaced with plug welds or seam welds. Most bodyshops would fall foul of this. The big repair shops have specialist spot welders now, computer assisted which log the vehicle you are working on, and where the spot welds need to be, and the correct number of them. so manufactures design spec is kept a constant. How the use of pattern parts will be viewed wiould be interesting, as for the Minor most of these are underspecified in terms of panel guage.
I doubt if any minor ,except for toatally original ones would pass the monocoque test as very few repair panels are as designed by Austin or Morris.

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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by theminorsite »

jonathon wrote:I wonder if this modification to the monocoque goes as far as the type of welding. Ie original spot welds replaced with plug welds or seam welds. Most bodyshops would fall foul of this. The big repair shops have specialist spot welders now, computer assisted which log the vehicle you are working on, and where the spot welds need to be, and the correct number of them. so manufactures design spec is kept a constant. How the use of pattern parts will be viewed wiould be interesting, as for the Minor most of these are underspecified in terms of panel guage.
I doubt if any minor ,except for toatally original ones would pass the monocoque test as very few repair panels are as designed by Austin or Morris.
I can answer the first part of that Jonathon. Welding, for the purposes of repair/restoration, must be of at least rather than exactly the standard originally laid down. If your car was spot-welded and you've seamed that in, that will, apparently, be okay.
In regard to pattern parts, that'll be another question entirely. Could it be seen that copied parts, not of the same standard of the original, are 'modifications'? Well the answer to that one is bad, purely because it can't be good - whatever definition is arrived at and laid down in the guidelines will be done at the drop of a hat by some unnaccountable jobsworth in an office somewhere and will then be enforced strictly. That's the point - nobody 'on the ground' will be part of any consultation exercise in forming the 'Policy for converted Minors' or whatever, and once it has been set down it cannot be appealed as there isn't any process in place for that.
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by leyther8008 »

This is an ideal topic for the MMOC commitee to get activley involved with on our behalf. or is it a case of dont make them aware of potential victims like converted saloons etc.
And how do you prove the work was done over 20 years ago, do you need a photo of your self with 80s disco gear on doing the actual mod.
Actually I,ve heard of somebody who did an engine swap with the engine from a scrapyard and sent off his V5 as your supposed to and it got him a whole load of grief about receipts, fitting by a 'competant' person etc.
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by PSL184 »

leyther8008 wrote: Actually I,ve heard of somebody who did an engine swap with the engine from a scrapyard and sent off his V5 as your supposed to and it got him a whole load of grief about receipts, fitting by a 'competant' person etc.
That happened to me too. I changed a dead 1098 for a running 948 engine and sent the V5 to DVLA notifying them of change in engine number and capacity. They withheld the V5 until I could prove that the engine was fitted by a qualified vehicle engineer and / or I had a receipt for the work done by the garage that did it :roll:
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by bpr81a »

That's because reducing the engine size can reduce the tax payable (yes, I know its a historic and exempt.....but the rules are made for modern cars) They're after proof that the engine is now actually smaller. I doubt you'd have that problem putting a larger engine in. :D


EDIT... Just check DVLA website - they do now require evidence for an increase.... :roll:
Last edited by bpr81a on Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: further info

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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by jonathon »

Jon, do you have the documentation relating to the claim that the Minor is 'not' a monocoque design

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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by leyther8008 »

I can't see anybody claiming it not to be a monocoque anywhere except my minor van reference which of course has a seperate chassis as you know.
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by theminorsite »

leyther8008 wrote:This is an ideal topic for the MMOC commitee to get activley involved with on our behalf. or is it a case of dont make them aware of potential victims like converted saloons etc.
And how do you prove the work was done over 20 years ago, do you need a photo of your self with 80s disco gear on doing the actual mod.
Actually I,ve heard of somebody who did an engine swap with the engine from a scrapyard and sent off his V5 as your supposed to and it got him a whole load of grief about receipts, fitting by a 'competant' person etc.
Well I'm hesitant about the idea of not making them aware of potential victims, because that will lead to each individual owner up against the mighty wheels of HM Gov and getting run over in the process. As for proving age of mods, it will be down to you to work out how to 'prove' your case, and if you can't, well its a HIVA for you.
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twincamman
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Re: 'Q' reg, no free tax, and £450 for an MOT!

Post by twincamman »

For all the info on this go to http://www.the-ace.org.uk
There's also a long thread on this over on Retro Rides
http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... 954&page=1
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