Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Let us all know what you are up to with your current restoration project. Get that Minor on the road!

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MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:57 pm

Today I made a start on the rear end, my current plan is to swap the rear apron and then begin to build the rest around it. Hopefully this sounds feesible.
The pictures below show the current progress, a few questions I have:
1. How do you cut straight lines in the metal to replace panels? Angle grinder, jigsaw, tins snips etc???
2. The section of floor to the rear of the fuel tank has some rust and also someone had cut holes through the section to put bolts through to hold the rear apron on, is a sensible option to cut a straight line across the width of the car above the highest hole and fabricate a new repair panel to be seam welded on?

Looking for some advice as i am learning as I go :)
Thanks in advance
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MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:46 pm

Stripping the rear end continued today, still not quite sure what I am doing but hoping it will become a little clearer as I begin to find solid metal :)
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irmscher
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby irmscher » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:37 pm

i think a lot of people would of given up but you are doing a great job of restoring and another traveller saved :)

ManyMinors
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby ManyMinors » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:10 am

Your headlining looks in good condition. If it is, I would remove it all before you do much more cutting and grinding because the hot sparks will spoil it :wink: Glass is also easily damaged in this way but it looks as if you have removed it all?
Good luck with the restoration. You're making good progress.

Mark Wilson
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby Mark Wilson » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:24 am

Second ManyMinors on looking after the headlining. You've done right leaving most of the wood on so far, but I'd recommend checking that it is still square at the back door opening and then bracing it. Traveller back ends have a habit of distorting and you don't want to weld it up out of square!

I think you've done about four years of work at my rate of progress!

Mark

MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:05 am

The wood isnt attached at the rear on the near side, the wood was rotten and the metal was rusty, the back doors did close but not perfectly.
I am currently debating whether to take the wood off completely as im not convinced it is suitable to line anything up with, the question is then do I buy new wood now and build it up so it can be lifted on and off during the rebuild process to ensure the rear arches and apron line up correctly when replaced.
Anyone have any opinion about whether this is the right way to go?

The rear floor and chassis rails generally look ok (apart from the spring hangers) so I am hoping these are alligned correctly and can be a basis to fit and repair around.

mogbob
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby mogbob » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:24 pm

Cutting straight lines ... angle grinder , Jigsaw and side cutters ?
Answer .. all of the above , individually or in combination. Each section will require a different solution. There is no one tool that will do everything.
Coloured masking tape will assist in keeping the line straight , cut on the waste side of the line.
If you have space or need to go around a 90 degree bend , leave some "spare" metal on the patch , weld up the bulk and then cut off any excess. This course of action is better than having to weld in " extra " little bits. Stronger and neater is better.

Angle grinders....need good access. Clear / protect wood , glass , seats , carpets , steering wheel , dashboard , headling , paintwork , etc. as others have said. Use a proper cutting disc ( not a grinding disc ). Safety precautions are absolutely essential and don't undertake the exercise when you're tired. DON'T push on / force the disc through the metal , let the tool do the work with a light touch and with you
exercising a" firm grip " on the grinder. Don't try and twist the grinder whilst in motion. A mobile ( i.e flying through the air, if you drop it ) grinder, if it "catches " and kicks back , it will cause damage. If you're really , really lucky just to things. If it's you or someone else .....mmm , call the ambulance.

Cross piece .. I'd tend to leave it in situ and fill in the holes with metal discs. If you chop up squares of the right size you can file the corners off , several at a time in the vice.
Use the old Welders trick of a piece of Brass bar behind the join , suitably clamped , to act as a heat sink. If you fancy it , the brass trick would help with replicating a spot weld with the MIG. Depends what you find easier / quicker.

Doing a whole strip across the car, joddling the strip and welding would give you a large area that would attract future rust. Underneath the back of the car is right in the firing line for all the road spray , etc.

Keep saving the cereal packets , they are great for making templates for your patches. Cut slightly over size and trim down later and make an extra allowance if you're putting a bend in a patch.
Good luck with it
Bob

kevin s
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby kevin s » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:03 pm

A couple of further tips, the thin 1mm cutting discs give much neater and cleaner cuts but you will need a lot of them, I must have used well over 50 on ours. When using these wear a full face mask, the plus is they don't tend to kick back as much if they catch, more often and not is because they shatter though!.

Also check and double check behind where you are cutting, It's all too easy to cut through something you didn't mean to.

And before you cut much else out think about how you are going to keep it all aligned, it might be worth tacking some lengths of angle iron or similar from good metal at the rear to the top of the windscreen frame.

MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:36 pm

Does anyone know the correct location for the rear apron? Should this go under or above the rear floor behind where the fuel tank is?
My assumption is that it fits undernear and is seam welding with the rear floor coming down as far as the angled bit to horizontal on the apron.

Mark Wilson
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby Mark Wilson » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:44 pm

I bought my wood two years ago and had to "adjust" the rear area quite a bit after trial fitting. It will be finally fitted shortly, as soon as I manage to sort out my paint problems on the ally panels. :-? Steve Foreman strongly recommends fitting the rear inner arch flanges with the wood in place, easier to alter the metal than the wood.

I lapped my boot floor to the vertical section, the new metal internally, with plug welds and seams at the horizontal junctions. Not saying my way is the only way or the right way, though! Here it is during fitting and also internal and external during painting (although not necessarily in that order...) :)

Mark
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MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:51 am

Mark, Thankyou for the pictures, they really help. Would it be a good option to clamp the rear apron in the right place, draw around the edge and then cut away the extra metal either from the apron or the floor. Then clamp and seam weld the two together? Surely having overlapping panels will create areas where water can get in?
The plan is very fluid as I am learning as I go but I think I will get the chassis rail, edge of the boot floor and spring hanger fixed first on the near side, then maybe flip the car and do the same on the offside. After that remove all the wood and with the car back on the floor begin to rebuild the back end maybe with the new wood to trial fit.

Mark Wilson
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby Mark Wilson » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:44 am

The purists will certainly tell you to avoid lapped joints because of the risk of corrosion, but I opted to go that way because it is stronger. My welds aren't always perfect and there is quite a lot of stress at that joint. I cut most of the vertical section, leaving a lap of about 15mm. I've fully welded and seam sealed the lap, so no moisture should get in. Remember I'm a learner too (a slow one! and as I've said, I'm not claiming my way is necessarily the right way!

You will probably find that the rear spring hanger and inner arch need a lot of fettling, ie hammering and swearing, to get them to fit to the rear apron. Welding the inner arch fixes the height of the apron, which fixes the height of the rear pillar, so you really need to have the wood when you are setting all that up. You probably need to trial fit both sides to make sure it is square at the door opening. A lot easier with a rotisserie, even if made of a scaffold pole and builders trestles like mine!

Can't say yet if mine has all worked out, but I did meet someone who only found out that the wood didn't fit after welding and painting everything...... :(

Redmoggy
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby Redmoggy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:51 am

You clearly have a better idea than the previous welders of your car, your planning on some tuition! Yes a butt welded join is preferable, however butt welding two pieces of 18 gauge or thinner steel requires some patience and skill to do well. This is where a lap or joggled join is more preferable.

Lap welds are simple and give you the comfort of being able to concentrate your weld pool on the new steel and let it flow into the old meaning less chance of blowing a hole. You also have the advantage of not having to be so precise with your cuts and having a layer of steel under your repair panel that allows you to hold the two together with screws whilst you line it up and weld it.

A joggled join requires you to be a little more precise with your cutting but has a couple of advantages. It looks much neater and the joggled edge gives a little more rigidity to minimise warpage. You also retain the ability to screw the panels together.

If you really want a butt welded join then my best advise would be to try welding some scrap old and new steel together. You will be surprised by how much the steel tries to move and how much that little bit of contamination in the old steel changes the weld from your practise pieces at tech.

Try and avoid using heavy abrasive to clean the old steel, chances are it will be thin enough without you removing even more.

Rod

MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:39 am

Redmoggy - I have no idea what im doing but like to research and ask questions before jumping in to make sure the job is done as well as it can be, I love the idea of buying more tools so think I will get myself a joggler tool, that way I can joggle and hole punch the panels and then spot weld through the holes ;)

Redmoggy
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby Redmoggy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:55 pm

Without sounding pompous, what you mean is a Plug weld. This is used to replicate spot welds when a resistance type spot welder is not available. It's ideal along factory seams where you are able to clamp either side of the hole you have drilled or where you are able to physically press the two panels together without distorting them. Such as re attaching the inner wheel arch to the rear chassis rail. Essentially you weld through the hole to the panel underneath. A good technique is to build the weld pool in the centre of the hole and once it nice and fluid draw a circle outward with the tip of the torch.

The problem with plug welding is that as you build the weld pool it can push the two panels apart weakening the join. If you tried to do this along the cut edge of your boot floor repair it would be best to have someone pushing against you from the other side. Otherwise you could easily distort the original metal as you try to push down against the new panel. Make sense?

On the other hand if you joggle and seam weld that join you only need to gently press against the new panel to hold it tight whilst you add a tack weld every 20 mm or so. You can then tighten the join with a hammer and dolly (lump 2x4) before joining your tack together. Again if you work the join between welds with a hammer and dolly you can help dissipate some of the heat.

Rod

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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby kevin s » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:21 pm

what I often do on the underbody sections is seam weld the repair section is with just 2 or 3mm of overlap, makes welding much easier in difficult areas and the overlap pretty much disappears in the welding process (particularly if you then weld the other side as well), any overlap which is left is shallow enough for paint / sealant / wax to penetrate fully.

MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:02 pm

Today was a long day in the garage with some high points and some not so high. It started off with a big area to fill as seen in the last picture along side the fuel tank recess towards the rear.
After much cutting, bending and hammering I eventually got a piece to fit ready for welding. (High point). Being a less than novice welder I took my time welding the panel in, after only blowing a few holes,overall I was impressed with my attempt.
I then dressed the weld with a flap disc but now fear I have sanded too much and made the metal too thin (low point). I am now stuck with a decision to make, is the panel ok as it is or do I have to cut it out creating a larger hole and start again.
Any advice welcome!
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MagicMorris
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby MagicMorris » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:11 pm

Two more quick questions :)

If the weld has been ground a little too much would a layer of JB weld be suitable to buld it back up and sand flat, this should also fill any pin holes left from my poor welding.

Also in the picture third from bottom where the metal looks solid but very pitted, is this an issue that would need replacing or would cleaning it up with a wire brush and priming etc... be ok.

westy24
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby westy24 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:03 pm

Not bad welds for a beginner , did you do any test pieces before welding the car ?
I find it important to try a test weld before hand every time you set up the welder , if it sounds like bacon cooking then your nearly there . Adjustment on the wire speed must be made at very small amounts at a time . Have you tried tack Welding continuously instead of continuous , what I mean is trigger on / trigger off and so on , instead of trigger on for a long time , tacking is a good way to keep the panel reasonably cool but it helps when the welder is set up so you get the correct penatration, your panel looks good , you can usually tell if you grind to much metal away when the metal turns a blue colour , or test by holding wood underneath and giving it a good tap around with a pick hammer , just to make sure . Hope this helps and keep up the good work

mogbob
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Re: Morris Traveller Restoration Newbie

Postby mogbob » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:39 pm

It's very difficult , from just a photo , to make considered comment on the thickness of the metal.
If you are saying you need to go back to " beef up " the weld line ( where the weld bead "tails off " and is not as thick ) then fire up the welder gain. As your experience grows , you will get the thickness of bead more consistent. Put a few more filler welds into the line to correct. Welding wire is cheaper than JB weld.
If it's the new metal you're talking about , has your enthusiasm got hold of you to such an extent that you're saying the new metal is desperately thin , because of the sanding ?
Can you flex it with mild finger tip pressure. If so you might want to re- assess the way forward. Restrict the sanding down to getting the weld flush with the new surface. A delicate approach , with regular checking , flat surface ( Metal ruler ) , feel finger tips ( once it's cooled down !! ) is the way to go.

Standing by my first comment , from the photo , it looks good to me.

Third photo. I'd put the pitting into the " surface rust " category. The metal doesn't appear to be deeply pitted or holed. I'd be very thankful if that was all the rust I had to deal with on a restoration ! I've seen much worse on the 5 or so I've got involved with.
Hit it with the wire brush on a drill or angle grinder and then apply a rust converter treatment to neutralize the rust. The change in colour will reassure you that you've covered it all. A bit of zinc primer and some thick black chassis paint and it's job done. Check after the application of rust converter as to how deep the surface pits are , it might need a skim of filler but not much I guess , if at all.

Personal confession time. My first classic car restoration. Couldn't wait to get stuck in , I cut out a section of the boot floor , abutting an inner wing and put in a fabricated patch. I thought my welding was great. I continued anti clockwise around the car , patching and welding in new sills, part wings , etc. When I returned to my original " patch " I stood back and studied the workmanship. I decided it was complete rubbish. Ripped it out and did it again. Reflecting on it I realized that in the intervening years my experience and quality of welding had improved immeasurably without me noticing. My standard expectation had risen.

So don't beat yourself up about it and keep cracking on. As I always say to others ...it's your car and your the one who decides that you're happy with it. You did a good weekends work there and with any restoration there will be a lot more weekends to look forward
to. Save your concern for really disastrous problems.
Well done.
Bob


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