Remote brake fluid reservoir pipe routing

[paulhumphries]

Where does the pipe from master cyclinder to an under bonnet reservoir go ?
Do you route it inside the chassis leg or outside ?
If outside is there already a hole for the pipe to pass or do you have to drill one ?

Thanks.

Paul Humphries.

[bmcecosse]

In my opinion - - (been told to say that) - this is more trouble than it's worth! If you must do it - make sure the pipe is well protected and can't get snagged - if it gets pulled off, all the brake fluid will run away - and unless you fit a low level warning, the first you will know about it is when the pedal hits the floor!

[wanderinstar]

[jonathon]

Contary to the belief of some, it is essential that the header tank is fitted.
The routing largely depends on your choice. We favour external routing, on the outside edge of the leg, however this does require a hole to be drilled into the leg.
With the better H/T kits available the pipework is fully rigid, with the correct unions ,so the probability of 'it being pulled off' is negligable.
'Old dogs ,new tricks ,then BM yeeha!!!!!

[bigginger]

Surely that leaves it precisely as vulnerable as the pipes on a drum brake equipped Minor, with the same catastrophic possibilities? ;)

[bmcecosse]

The header tank is only 'essential' if fitting disc brakes with large diameter caliper cylinders. More than 1,000,000 Minors were made without brake header tanks ! I think they manged just fine without . Yes - solid piping should be fine (if routed carefully) - but I worry that some kits may be supplied with plastic piping ?

[jonathon]

100% in agreement BM. Which is why I/we assumed that discs were being fitted, or that just an easier method of topping up the cylinder is required.
Plastic piped kits have been available for over 20 years now, and in general have not proved to be a major problem. Still you pay's yer money and takes yer choice!

[paulhumphries]

This is in advance of fitment of disc brakes (Midget based) as I intend transplanting a 1275 Ital engine and autobox.

My minds made up then - forget about buying a kit.
I'm going to make up one myself ?
The rear blanking plug (I've got a couple of good spares) can be drilled, tapped (if enough metal) and a threaded pipe stub attached - sealed with copper washers.
Copper fuel pipe will be flared at ends to provide attachment to master cylinder and remote reservoir - obviously by using female nuts .
Pipe wil be routed outside the chassis leg and secured with "P" clips.
Remote reservoir will probably be a METAL item - either Land Rover or HGV clutch.
There will be a low level sensor.


Copper washers are used to seal the pressure side of the hydraulics so should be adequate for the non pressure feed.
Threaded unions should avoid the possibility of the pipe comming off the master cyclinder or reservoir.
Copper fuel pipe, securely attached, is fitted underneath to millions of cars so I cann't see why it can be a problem.
Metal fluid reservoir eliminates chances of plastic stub leaking or even breaking off.

Anyone see flaws with my idea for a homemade remote reservoir ?

Paul Humphries

[alex_holden]

Note that the Land Rover reservoir (at least the ones I've seen) have two outlets and a divider inside so a leak on the clutch side won't cause the brakes to run out of fluid. Also the disadvantage of a metal tank is you have to take the cap off to check the level (though it's still easier than the standard Moggy setup).

[rayofleamington]

, the first you will know about it is when the pedal hits the floor!

That's certainly not my opinion. If the pipe comes off you will loose all the fluid from the extra reservoir but the original master cylinder reservoir will still have some fluid.
Your pedal will not hit the floor anyway (unless the drum brakes fade away) unless you have a leak. Chances are with a remote reservoir and being able to check the level more easily and more frequently you will spot the leak earlier with a remote reservoir.
Certainly I've had the pedal hit the floor on more than one Minor, but if I'd had a bulkhead reservoir kit I would have had more chance to know about a problem before that happened.

There have been a few problems with one kit, but as Jonathon says - not all kits are the same.

Back to the question of pipe routing - I was going to say that I would avoid routing the pipe in the leg at all costs. You would need to get the pipe very securely tagged in place to ensure it cannot rub on the pedal mechanism and to do that would make it not worthwhile compared to an external routing.

Note that the Land Rover reservoir (at least the ones I've seen) have two outlets and a divider inside so a leak on the clutch side won't cause the brakes to run out of fluid

It depends on the age. Old land rovers have seperate reservoirs for barake and clutch fluid. Any car that has a combined reservoir is legally required to have a divider at the bottom of the tank to ensure that a leak in one system will not completely empty the other system - and modern cars will have a warning sensor anyway.

There are still some modern-ish Euroboxes that use seperate reservoirs (my civic did) so even if you went for a plastic reservoir it is not too hard to work out.

The problem with leaking connections at a remote reservoir is a disgrace. This appears to be caused by shoddy quality, not the actual design. Plastic reservoirs and push on rubber pipe can withstand 140psi if designed properly! (Modern Fords have a high-pressure fill process on line). If this can withstand 140psi without leaking, then there is no excuse for a leak at 0.01 psi fluid head.

[bmcecosse]

" if it gets pulled off, all the brake fluid will run away - and unless you fit a low level warning, the first you will know about it is when the pedal hits the floor! " Just doing my Risk Assessment - I'm a Safety Officer (and about 6 other job titles).

[rayofleamington]

Just doing my Risk Assessment - I'm a Safety Officer (and about 6 other job titles).

In the automotive business we do 'failure mode effect and analysis' (FMEA). The loss of the pipe from remote reservoir will not empty the original reservoir in the chassis leg. I'm not a safety officer - I'm a systems engineer working on safety critical vehicle systems ;-)

[bmcecosse]

FMEA is just fancy way of saying Risk Assessment! It amounts to the same thing. I reckon if a plastic pipe somehow got pulled off/worn through/cut - and came away from the reservoir - and happened to fall below the master cylinder it would pretty quickly drain away all the fluid down to the level of the rear plug - that wouldn't leave too much in there - with obvious possibilities. But it is all hypothetical - the point i was making is that nice solid bundy pipe job would be a whole lot better. My Safety Officer/Facilities Manager/Maintenance Manager/Methods Manager etc etc job is in an explosives factory - we take our RAs pretty seriously - and have to consider all possibilities.

[NZJLY]

job is in an explosives factory

Tries hard to resist joke about driving a bomb, but fails

I do agree on the metal piping though. Many moggies still have the original brake lines from new, but there wouldn't be many with the original plastic bits

[rayofleamington]

FMEA is just fancy way of saying Risk Assessment!

It's just one of the many tools used in my day job to minimise design risk, but the most applicable to mechanical design, and if used carefully can be good for system design and process design. We use IQFMEA and when used in early design phases it is far more worthwhile as it controls the design strategy and mandates a much more structured approach.

'Risk assessment' means many different things to many different people - in my lab it's just a paper excercise you do to keep the safety officer happy before you are allowed to run a test.

Trying to keep to the original point: You can't empty the chassis leg m/c reservoir through the pipe as the spigot is half way up the reservoir (rather like trying to empty a loft water tank through the overflow pipe, fluid doesn't go uphill without a siphon).

[bmcecosse]

Ah well Ray - you are only cheating yourself if you don't do the RA properly - but the Safety lad should be doing it to get an independent assessment. I DO - mine are the equal of FMEA - with all forseeable aspects taken into account (sadly i don't have the gift of hind-sight - but do what I can to look into the future - especially when picking my Lotto numbers!) - given appropriate weightings - and from that a final Risk rating is calculated. I agree - the pipe coming off will not 'empty' the brake reservoir - but it will take it down quite low leaving less margin than normal for fluid usage before air gets in. However - this could go on for ever - lets just leave it as fully discussed and let everyone make up their own minds about remote reservoirs!!

[jonathon]

Phew !!! mind made up already

[swithland]

This is in advance of fitment of disc brakes (Midget based) as I intend transplanting a 1275 Ital engine and autobox.

My minds made up then - forget about buying a kit.
I'm going to make up one myself ?
The rear blanking plug (I've got a couple of good spares) can be drilled, tapped (if enough metal) and a threaded pipe stub attached - sealed with copper washers.
Copper fuel pipe will be flared at ends to provide attachment to master cylinder and remote reservoir - obviously by using female nuts .
Pipe wil be routed outside the chassis leg and secured with "P" clips.
Remote reservoir will probably be a METAL item - either Land Rover or HGV clutch.
There will be a low level sensor.


Copper washers are used to seal the pressure side of the hydraulics so should be adequate for the non pressure feed.
Threaded unions should avoid the possibility of the pipe comming off the master cyclinder or reservoir.
Copper fuel pipe, securely attached, is fitted underneath to millions of cars so I cann't see why it can be a problem.
Metal fluid reservoir eliminates chances of plastic stub leaking or even breaking off.

Anyone see flaws with my idea for a homemade remote reservoir ?

Paul Humphries

I bought one of the plastic pipe type remote reservoir kits and i am finding that the pipe fouls the torsion bar as it runs along the outside of the chassis leg. It then fouls the steering rack gaiter when the car is jacked up and the bottom of the reservoir leaks ever so slightly. I would like to change to a more solid copper pipe set up. Does anyone know where I can buy a really good quality kit with copper pipe and fittings ?

Cheers
Charles

[Declan_Burns]

The plastic pipe is better on the inside of the chassis leg and not on the outside. I, and several others who have fitted this plastic pipe, have found it very often has condensation on it-as if it sweats. It is not a leak. A copper pipe would be better.

[swithland]

Hi Declan. Yes I ddid notice what looked like condensation and have wiped it off many times, but where the pipe touches the bulkhead the paintwork has peeled away. I thought then that there must have beeen a leak, but then the remote reservoir levels have not dropped. So that is one of the reasons why I wanted to change to a solid option with copper pipe. The way I see it, the pipe will not deteriorate unlike plastic pipe. Where I live ( Hong Kong ), the high heat and humidity murders plastics and rubbers in no time at all. As an example, I put 2 new ccontinentals on my "modern day car" just 2 years ago. It went in ffor an MOT and I was shoccked to see the rubber split all around the inside of the rims. That is a common problem with plastics andd rubbers over here.

So if anyone knows where I can get a kit with a copper pipe set up that would bee really good !!