engine chattering under load

Post by **Dru** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:35 am

Firstly, hello. I'm new here.

I've just bought a Traveller. There was a bit of a delay getting it from the garage because when they ran the engine up on test, the oil pressure light took ages to go out, so they checked the oil pump and found that it was loose, and the oil had been squirting out of the seal. They also changed the crankshaft whil they were at it. And did a compression test which apparently was OK

I took it for a longish run to, er, run it in a bit; it seemed quite gutless, though maybe I'm just not used to the way of Travs... but there is a chattering when the engine is under load. Is this normal? Could this be loose valves or something? Do you think I should be worried?

Feeling a bit daft,

Dru

Post by **NZJLY** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:30 am

Does the chattering stop when you back off, or does it keep going (could be lack of oil). Also, what sort of car are you comparing it to, as 1 950 or 1100 motor are not the most powerful motors around.

Post by **Dru** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:39 am

Yes; the chattering comes on when I push down the throttle to accelerate, and disappears when I back it off. There's no shortage of oil now; I'm worried that there was a shortage in the past.

It's a 1098, and I'm downsizing from a 1.8 Sierra Estate, so I was expecting a fair drop in performance; but I did have a Morris 1000 van and a Traveller twenty-odd years ago, and they seemed perfectly up to the job back then. Maybe it's a case of different times...

Post by **Willie** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:29 pm

It depends really on what you mean by 'chattering'. If it is a deep knocking which disappears when you back off of the throttle then it suggests big ends. If it is a high pitched tinkling which stops when you cease to accelerate then it suggest 'pinking' which is usually due to the ignition timing being too far advanced or you could be seriously over-
heating. I assume that the oil pressure light in the speedo lights up when you switch on and goes out as soon as the engine starts? The lack
of performance suggest that perhaps the timing is too far retarded but this would not tie in with the 'pinking' theory. If your garage were correct about a 'loose' oil pump then the damage may have already been done.

Post by **kennatt** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:44 pm

hi willy sounds more like pinking to me just retard the timing and see if it goes away. simple to do and easy to turn it back if the noise stays.Dont think its big end knock(allthough it could be if they are badly worn)you usually hear big end knock just on the overrun.IE as you lift of the throttle on gear change.The classic test for big ends is to accelerate under load and ease the throttle and listen for the chatter. best of luck ken

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:57 pm

The idea that the oil pump was 'loose' is most unlikely!! It's buried at the back of the engine and I have never heard of one being 'loose' - unless they meant 'seriously worn internally' ? Did they really replace the crankshaft - or just the bearing shells ? You need to find out. The best investment you can make is to add an oil pressure gauge - it's an 'essential' with the A series engine. Try the car on top grade petrol - see if it seems any better. But likely it is 'pinking' and so retarding the timing will stop it - but will possibly loose you a little performance. With some basic engine mods a 1098 Traveller can keep up with traffic ok - but the economy tends to suffer.

Post by **Dru** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:17 am

Thanks for the suggestions. It's definitely not a knock; it sounds very much like a sewing machine, if that's any help... sort of clattery chattery... as for temperature, there's a water temp gauge fitted and it holds fairly steady at about 75-80 degrees.

I'll be taking the car back next week or so to have heated rear windows fitted, and I intend to ask them about it then. I like to think they can be trusted, and shall continue to do so until proven otherwise. But it's a bit of a worry...

Post by **Willie** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:32 am

Just remember that goods have to be 'fit for purpose'.

Post by **heathy12** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:01 am

Checked your wheel nuts?!

Random I know, But I had a similar problem on my FTO. Turns out someone had tried to nick my wheels and had undone the nuts slightly. When I accelerated it knocked, when I came off the throttle it didnt!

HTH

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Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:10 am

Heated rear windows !!! At least your hands will be warm if you need to push it. Better spend the cash on oil pressure gauge. If it's pinking - you must NOT let it continue - it can knock holes in the pistons. Try top grade petrol and retard the timing.

Post by **Kevin** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:17 pm

you usually hear big end knock just on the overrun

Have to disagree there they can also be heard when the engine is under load.

Dont wish to place doubt on you supplier but if they really did replace the oil pump and crankshaft that does involve a bit of work and I would be suprised if they did all that work and then didnt set the engine up afterwards, but its possible they didnt give it a test run and as others have mentioned maybe the timing is way out, did they say it was suitable to run on unleaded or not ? as this can make a difference as well.
One other thing if you are having heated rear windows you will need an alternator fitted if you dont already have one.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:14 pm

Yes - big ends rattle like a machine gun under load. Does the oil pressure light come on when idling with hot engine ?

Post by **Dru** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:01 am

Sorry to be so long replying; half term busyness...

No, the oil pressure light remains off.

Cutting to the chase; I phoned the garage and took it in. They had a listen, checked the tappets; noise was still there. They think it may be a piston ring misbehaving. They're going to take it to bits to get to the root of the trouble, next week or so. I'll give an update when it happens.

For the rest of it, there is an alternator fitted to accommodate all the extras I asked for; brake servo, halogen headlights, hazard/fog/reversing lights. Which I guess means I won't be able to hand crank the engine if the battery's totally dead, as I used to be able to on my old van.... still, changing times. I want to maximise the safety side of things.

I take back what I said about the performance. I'm getting used to things now. Slowwwllllyyyy...

Thank you all for taking the trouble to reply. A problem shared...

Post by **bmcecosse** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:29 am

'Piston ring' seems highly unlikely !! Does this garage know anything about the A series engine ? Oil pressure light off is good - provided it does actually come on when you turn on the ignition in the first place !
Why would you not be able to hand crank it ??

Post by **Dru** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:35 pm

...I understood that an alternator needs a small current to excite the coil, so if the battery is totally dead then nothing would happen on the electrical front if one were to hand crank the engine. Or did I get it wrong again? -that's always happening with me...

As for the garage's knowledge base, without naming names they're a ************** Minor specialist; I truly <i>hope</i> they know what they're doing, and that this problem was a bit of an oversight on their part... the car came with a six month parts and labour guarantee, so there should be plenty of time to get it running like a... well, like a well-oiled machine...

Edited by Andrew

Post by **minor_hickup** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:39 pm

Its unlikely that a flat battery will be so dead you cannot hand crank it. I have an alternator and on a few occasions (usually leaving stuff on) I've had to crank it by hand. So never fear, its still a possibility for emergencies!

Post by **Dru** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:20 am

Oh, good. Treasure in store, then...

Post by **bmcecosse** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:46 am

Dynamo also needs a field current to get going! There will always be enough to start the car on the handle - unless the battery really is totally ruined. If the warranty is that good then INSIST on them putting it right - properly.

Post by **heathy12** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:34 am

Having just had this same problem on the turbo'd trav i'd reccomend you change the Exhaust Gasket!

Mine was loosing power slightly and sounding like a singer when accelerating but it went when you backed off the throttle and run perfectly.

Dead easy job. Gasket about 1.50p, only 6 1/2inch nuts holding the manifold on. May not look much at all even if its not leaking externally but if your leaking internally between inlet and exhaust you'll be trying to reburn burnt exhaust gasses which wont work!

Sounds like this thread has been looking too far into things! Which is always the case when something goes wrong, usually something quite simple!

My gasket had blown internally between the inlet and exhaust between number 3 cylinder and the inlet for that cylinder.

HTH. Let us know how you get on.

Changing a gasket like this is soooo easy! Get on and do it!

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Post by **bmcecosse** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:11 am

That's a very unusual gasket failure! In all my years I've never had that happen.