Help/ Ital engine/marina bellhousing/toledo box.

[metalmagpie]

I am in deep deep doody! The clutch has always been tricky, sometimes spinning, sometimes needing pumping (it has a triumph master cylinder and a marina slave.
Last week it stopped working altogether, just couldn't select gears.
I fitted new seals in the master cylinder and a new slave cylinder (this was saga in itself as I had to pull the engine forwards off the box to release the slave from its housing). Both sets of seals were worn and the slave was leaking and limited in movement to about 1 1/2" of stroke.
Reassembled and nothing was improved, probably worse as pressing the clutch pedal now stops the engine at tickover.
I now have to remove the engine to look at the clutch.
But, the engine will not come forward sufficiently to clear the spigot shaft. The sump hits the front cross member first. The engine will not tilt to clear even with the gearbox lifted right up against the steering rack.
Has anyone come across this before; does anyone know an alternative to taking the engine and box out as one; am I just being stupid. I have done many 948-1098 engine swaps in my younger days and never had this trouble.
From the various forums I see that the spigot shaft should be changed when carrying out this conversion. From the evidence it would seem that whoever last fitted this engine was more than a little casual (incorrect bolts and or nuts, missing washers and stripped threads abounded). Is it possible that he omitted to change the spigot shaft and if so would it cause this problem?
Would it be possible to undo the gearbox crossmember and move the box backwards to get the necessary clearance.
I have only the garden to work in and cannot move the car of the ramps it is on so I have quite limited access.
Please help if you can.

[bmcecosse]

I guess it would be possible (in fact essential!) to move the box back. These problems are why very few use that gearbox in the Minor.

[charlie_morris_minor]

These problems are why very few use that gearbox in the Minor.

what problem? you can not only take the engine out i.e. you need to take engine and box out at the same time (which appears to the problem). I thought the reason for not doing it was that when you change the box you also need to modify the bell housing / modify the clutch actuation / change the gearbox cross member / change the prop shaft ( hence expense ).

sorry to get back to the question...

why do you not want to take out the engine and box out as one?

if you do remove the gearbox cross member and slip the gearbox back, what is going to hold it up when you take out the engine? from what you are saying about the quality of engineering of the conversion i would also be concerned that the prop shaft might not have been modified correctly and might not have much if any movement ( backwards / forwards ) in it.

[bmcecosse]

It's an all-in package of difficulties 'charlie' - using that box. But some do it - with the overdrive unit, and are very pleased with it!

[metalmagpie]

Thanks for your advice. I was trying to avoid pulling the whole unit as I am very tight for space in front of the car. As regards the workmanship, it looks as if the conversion parts were properly done, the propshaft has clear splines behind the box. It is just the assembly which was somewhat lacking in care.
I thought of lowering the rear of the box,with crossmember attached,onto a wheeled trolley, so as to support it.
I am beginning to find out that the Marina bell-housing is a bit of an abortion It is so close to the floor that it causes intense vibration at around 50 in overdrive top which renders the advantages of the gearbox largely illusory. Far too big for the Minor. It probably have been easier and more elegant to make an engine backplate to suit the Triumph box, or perhaps I should try to source a 1098 box, and backplate?, and propshaft.
I am looking for advice as to where to go and any views would be welcomed.
I dearly want to get to the MMOC Rally.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Martin

[bmcecosse]

If pressing the clutch down stops the engine - it must be overtravelling. Perhaps the PO had got round this by having a little bit of air in the system! It will be a major job to start changing to standard Minor parts at this stage.

[metalmagpie]

Thanks everyone for all your advice. Engine and gearbox came out together surprisingly easily, once I had moved the car back to give me room.
The friction plate was severely stuck to the flywheel and had to be prised off with a kitchen knife. The friction plate showed signs of being stuck in the same place for a long long time, and seemed to have depressions around the rivet marks. Loose springs, sloppy splines plate, all in all just a very sad clutch.
I am hoping this came off a marina, it is a Borg and Beck "Type 8-8 1/2" 31G399 and"LCf?f080896" If that means anything.
Thanks again, without your encouragement I would probably still be looking at it.

[Packedup]

The Marina box is the Triumph one, isn't it? Aside from the stalling issues (maybe forcing the pressure plate, and so flywheel and crank too hard at the thrust bearings?), these suffer from too much play in the pivot pin for the clutch fork.. I say too much play, the pins are known to fall out - And often get replaced with bolts of not quite the right size, and not a long enough shoulder. So over time, the threads on said already too slim bolt wear, giving even less of a decent fit, causing yet more slop in the system. Worth checking while you've got the box out

[metalmagpie]

Thanks, I will check the arm, especially as it came out before during the abortive engine-only removal.
Martin

[charlie_morris_minor]

I am beginning to find out that the Marina bell-housing is a bit of an abortion It is so close to the floor that it causes intense vibration at around 50 in overdrive top which renders the advantages of the gearbox largely illusory. Far too big for the Minor. It probably have been easier and more elegant to make an engine backplate to suit the Triumph box, or perhaps I should try to source a 1098 box, and backplate?, and propshaft.
Martin

bear with the O/D conversion it made motorway cruising a real pleasure in terms of noise / speed / fuel econ. why are you changing it O/D top at 50? i would change up at 65 / 70, could the excess vibration be from the engine struggling at such low revs whilst you are trying to accelerate?

For my conversion I had to take a chunk out of the bell housing ( drivers side I think ) , maybe you just need to take a bit more metal out in this area? I also had to raise the gearbox tunnel a couple of inches to clear the box all the way down?

I am hoping this came off a marina, it is a Borg and Beck "Type 8-8 1/2" 31G399 and"LCf?f080896" If that means anything.

The usual way to do the conversion is to use the marina / ital input shaft and triumph output shaft, which means the entire clutch mechanism is usually the ital / marina unit.

I have pm'd you my phone number if you want to have a longer chat about the conversion