Pigeon toed

[MarkyB]

Nice sunny day today so had a little tinker with the car.

I've had the feeling for a while that the steering geometry isn't that good so I took my new toy (an ipod touch) and used the spirit level app to look at the wheel camber, as I thought it is Pigeon toed.

I got 3 degrees from the off side and 2.5 from the near side.

My guess is that the thick washers are missing from the eye bolts, what do the panel think?

[bmcecosse]

That's a LOT of camber...... was the car sitting on dead level ground?

[MarkyB]

I got 4 degrees inside the garage which I think is flat, I put it in the yard for these measurements and I suspect there is a bit of a slope there.

At times it is quite visibly wrong.

Would the large washer account for it?
The chassis legs are fine, not replaced.

[bmcecosse]

I think it may take a bit more than a 'washer'.... suggest you check with a real spirit level. If you hold it against the tyre side-walls, be aware of the bulge in the bottom section of the tyre. Could be minimised by over-inflating to say 40 psi......

[alex_holden]

The accelerometer in a phone/iPod doesn't provide a very accurate level reading. They might be good enough for putting up a bookshelf but I wouldn't rely on it for setting your car's suspension geometry.

[MarkyB]

Point taken, but it's quick and easy and confirms what I'm seeing with my Mk1 eyeballs.

Measuring with a spirit level and a ruler, then doing trigonometry to get a number in degrees seems equally unlikely to give a super accurate result either.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that what Moss call; 68 ACA5253
WASHER, camber adjusting, thick.
Has been left off by some previous owner.

What camber should it be, neutral?

[Alec]

Hello Marky,

at first I didn't quite understand what you were using, but Alex confirmed it.

The simplest device is a piece of wood, about 4" wide, and the length to just go across the maximum diameter of the wheel, but away from the tyre, so about 14 1\2" long? You'll need to cut out the centre section to clear the hub caps. A piece of string at one end and a nut at the other, i.e a plumb bob.

Drive just into your garage, and check each side, measure the difference in distance of the string from the rim, top and bottom and note down. Do the same again but with the car reversed into the gagae so your front wheels end up in the same spot, this compensates for your unlevel garage floor (four degrees is far too much as you are aiming for a camber accuracy of, generously, a degree). Measure again and then compute.

Have fun.

Alec

[bmcecosse]

As standard the Minor had v slight +ve camber, dead upright will be better - and slight (1 degree) -ve camber helps a LOT.

[MarkyB]

Thanks Alec, I'll give that a try though I believe the garage is level, side to side at least.That I can check with a regular spirit level.

Thanks to Roy too, ESM have stock of the washers so I'll aim for a smidgen of -ve camber.

I will probably be back with a trigonometry question at some later date .

[bmcecosse]

You can't add too much - the nut on the eyebolt pin must remain fully engaged on the threads. Be sure to retrack the wheels after making any changes.

[chrisryder]

you could also try your measurements out on the rear wheels. obviously, these will be 0 camber, so if you're measurement gives 1 degree on the rear for instance, you know your method is 1 degree out, or at least you know that your measuring system doesn't work!

[MarkyB]

Good plan! I like it.

[fussyoldfart]

Well this certainly has my attention as I have been agonizing about getting new Chassis legs in right to have the camber correct.

By my rough calculations it takes between 5 and 6 millimetres of spacers at the eyebolt to change the camber one whole degree. I am basing this on a circle centered at the top trunnion pivot and I am not at all sure the calculation is right. I will be watching for advice on what the spacer thickness should be. New eyebolts with no spacers on new chassis legs seem to have about 8 to 10 mm of extra thread past the end of the nuts.

[MarkyB]

Well I like the simplicity of Chris's plan so much that I tried it while there was still a little light after I got home from work.
If anything, the accelerometer in a phone/iPod is too accurate, very much like using a digital test meter.
One side of the rear manage to hit 0.0 with very little problem, the other hovered around 0.something.

ESM list;
Washer - Eyebolt - Adjusting ( 1mm / .060" thick )
and
Washer - Eyebolt - Thick
From what I can remember I've never seen more than one thick washer in this position, but then they were banged together on a production line.
I doubt that the tolerances were very tight as dismantling everything would be very unpopular.

On a positive note this is a chance to "blueprint" the front suspension.

I'm much more tempted to loosen the eyebolt and wedge it out then drop the car down, roll it about a bit then measure again to decide on how thick the washers need to be.

[bmcecosse]

I used steel plate ~ 5/16" thick with a suitable hole drilled.

[fussyoldfart]

I used steel plate ~ 5/16" thick with a suitable hole drilled.

5/16" = .3125" = 7.9mm.
See my post above for the amount of thread available. That's certainly all you could get in.
Thanks for the information. It makes those 1mm and 1/8" spacers from EMS look puny

Does the car want to wander off a straight line when you're driving? I bet it corners like a champ!

[bmcecosse]

No wandering - but slight tendency to want to 'tramline'. Certainly not much understeer!

[MarkyB]

Under the car again today investigating the rear seal on the sump which I think it needs replacing with the rubber item.
Took this picture;[frame][/frame]
I think that washer should be on the other side of the chassis leg, also there is enough thread to allow for quite a lot of adjustment.

[bmcecosse]

Possibly - but a spreader washer there is a good idea. The chassis leg looks a bit 'crumbly' - I would be scraping off the underseal for a closer inspection........

[Dean Moriarty]

That leg looks familiar........
And I have the thick washers where yours are.

Reading this thread, if mine goes in a straight line following my novice chassis leg replacement it will be a miracle.