Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

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moggymaniac
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Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:28 am

Hi all,
I've bought a midget 1275 to go in my moggy 1000 (1098). I do a lot of motorway miles so I'm going ford 5 speed, but want to get it in and done at some point this summer, with as little stress as possible! So i'm asking people wo have done this conversion, what is the best combination of parts to use? Here's what I have in mind (with my very little knowledge acquired from google):

-Midget backplate
-David manners 5 speed conversion kit
- type 9 5 speed box (shorter main shaft version)
- mondeo concentric clutch slave cyinder
- remote clutch slave master cylinder in engine bay (???)

Have I missed anything?
And a couple of things...
1. For the fitment of the concentric clutch bearing, I'm guessing I need a spacer boss between the bearing and the bellhousing, and that it needs to be exactly the right thickness - does anyone have measurements of know of someone that produces a boss?
2. I'm looking at this bearing: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271913255412? ... EBIDX%3AIT - thoughts?
3. Does the david manners (Birmingham) bell housing come with threads to mount a concentric unit, or will I need to do this myself?
4. I'm really unsure of what route to go down with the hydraulic clutch master cylinder etc in combination with the concentric bearing, so any advice would be greatly received!
5. Which clutch and pressure plate do I use?

Please bear in mind - i'm looking to keep keep this as simple as possible!
Cheers :D


philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:37 am

Speak to Front Line Developments - see link below.

http://www.frontlinedevelopments.com/pa ... cc-engine/

They are very helpful and they are fully up to speed on your requirements.

Whilst the concentric release bearing is the best it is not imperative that the concentric bearing is fitted.

I have a similar set up to that shown in the link above and it works very well.

As regards the hydraulic master cylinder you can mount the cylinder on the cross member and adapt the original clutch pedal.

This is a link to a supplier of master cylinders and the different options available.

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/br ... -cylinders.

For the slave cylinder I just use a standard Mini/Midget item.

Phil[frame]Image[/frame][frame]Image[/frame]


bmcecosse
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby bmcecosse » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:52 am

And you'll need a special prop shaft..and a speedo change. I'll just add - your Motorway cruising will be handled much more easily (and for a lot less expense and effort) by fitting a 3.7 final drive while retaining the standard gearbox.
Last edited by bmcecosse on Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:09 pm

If you buy the David Manners type 9 conversion kit it comes with the prop-shaft.
If you make up your own conversion kit the prop-shaft is available separately:-


http://www.jagspares.co.uk/Morris/partd ... tno=SIER13


moggymaniac
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:02 pm

Thanks guys, I'll give them a call and have a chat. Will try to do it as cheaply as possible - will keep my eye out for bits online between now and summer. I've heard the concentric is best so I'll just go with that. Currently running the standard 4:22 diff bmcosse and while it's much cheaper I'm not willing to lose out on acceleration! Might as well 5 speed while the engine is out! Philthehill - how does yours feel pedal-wise and gear changes etc compared with the original 4 speed?
Thanks guys!


philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:11 pm

Currently the clutch pedal is a lot stiffer because I run a very strong 7 1/2" Ford comp clutch assy. When running with the standard MG clutch it was a bit heavier but nothing you will not be able to handle.
Get as small an internal bore clutch master cylinder as possible as the mechanical advantage will be better and it will lighten the clutch pedal pressure. See the above link for what is available. The pedal may travel a bit further but will be much lighter on the left leg.
Gear changes with all Ford gearboxes fitted with a floor mounted gear lever are brilliant and of course you have synchromesh on first.
The gear ratios in the type 9 are much better spaced than the Minor.
Here is a link to information on the type 9.

http://www.type9gearbox.co.uk/index.html


moggymaniac
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:23 am

Good to know! I see your clutch master cylinder is mounted through the original gearbox cross member, whilst a lot of the 5 speed conversion kits come with a replacement crossmember. Was it easy to retain the original when fitting a t9? And I may sound stupid, but...am I correct in thinking that having a concentric bearing will do away with the need for any clutch release arm? I just hook it up to a master cylinder which is connected to the (modified) pedal and go? (And bleed...). Has anyone gone down this route? Would really appreciate some feedback before I dive in. Thanks!


philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:14 am

When my Minor was converted to the Ford gearbox the type 9 conversion kit was not available so originally the car had the 2000E 4 speed gearbox fitted which is virtually the same as a type 9 without the rear alloy extension containing the overdrive gears. Basically the only part available back then was the bell housing and that was supplied by CS Autoclassics even then at several hundred pounds.
As it was one of the first if not the first to be mated to a 1275cc engine a lot of the adaption/fitting work had to be done by myself; all the clutch release mechanism had to be adapted/made from scratch and that is why the master cylinder and clutch release system is as it is. A lot of what is available now was not back then so fitting a Ford gearbox nowadays is relatively easy.
If ease of fitting is required the David Manners kit has everything so no additional work required.
As regards the hydraulic concentric release - you do not need a slave cylinder as the concentric is the slave cylinder and can be connected direct to the master cylinder via a flexible pipe.
Concentric mechanical clutch release is normal for the Ford gearbox as the release bearing slides fore and aft on a housing around the first motion shaft.
Even though I have a Midget arm moving the release bearing the release bearing is still a concentric bearing but mechanically operated.
Phil


ColinChandler
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby ColinChandler » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:49 pm

Hello all,
I'll go with that too. I have mechanically operated clutch which uses the Ford "tube" as a concentric guide for the clutch release bearing. To make the release bearing concentric, the release arm has to slide about its centre pivot. I got round it by making some side linkage plates which allow the arm to "sway" as it travels but talking to David Manners since then, they do a slotted bracket which will do the same job. They're always very helpful if you ask, its just knowing that there's something there to ask for.
Hope this helps, Colin.

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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:50 am

Thanks for all the info, guys! Really useful.
So the main things I need to figure out now:
1.How thick the boss/spacer needs to be between the hydraulic release bearing and the gearbox face for it to engage the clutch perfectly
2. How to modify my clutch pedal mechanism to actuate a hydraulic clutch master cylinder - thinking marina pedalbox but not so happy about cutting the bulkhead to do this...thoughts anyone? Seen a couple of pics of one run under the floor but want ease of access for filling etc so under the body would be best I guess!
3. If my midget flywheel will need machining to take the Sierra clutch plate and pressure plate.
4. Do I need to change the spigot on the moggy starter motor for it to engage with a midget ring gear?
Will give those guys a call when I get a chance, Phil, but in the meantime, any thoughts on the above? Have I missed anything that I might run into?
Cheers :)


philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:55 pm

To answer your questions:-
1. The thickness of the boss (if required) will be determined by what flywheel and clutch assy you use. Speak with Frontline.
2. Modify the clutch pedal as pictured above.
3. My clutch master cylinder pictured above has a remote reservoir located under the bonnet.
4. If you want a 7.5" dia clutch you will have to have the Midget flywheel machined to suit and indexed drilled for the new cover bolts and locating dowels.
5. You do not need to do anything about the starter but you will need a modified spigot bush for the gearbox first motion shaft where it fits into the rear of the crankshaft.
6. You will need to ensure that you have the correct centre plate with the right number of splines even if you retain the Midget pressure plate.

See photos below:
Modified 1275cc Midget flywheel machined to suit 7.5" clutch assy.[frame]Image[/frame]
Rear of 1275cc Midget crankshaft modified to accept Ford first motion shaft.[frame]Image[/frame]
If you purchase the David Manners kit all the parts are supplied for a straight conversion of the Midget gearbox to a ford gearbox. 7.5" Clutch and flywheel conversion will be additional.


moggymaniac
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:41 pm

Thanks very much for the info, Phil. As and when money permits, now! :D


SteveClem
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby SteveClem » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:53 pm

Yes, it's not a cheap job. But you get a minor that is very usable in modern traffic. My Trav was converted some years back...no regrets!

moggymaniac
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:54 am

Hi all!
Sorry to come back to an old thread. It's finally happening!
I've acquired a second hand conversion kit (old welded type bellhousing, not cast).
The guy I bought it from hadn't used it but assured me it was purchased from someone who ahd used it successfully.
The clutch actuation is hydraulic but I think i'll retain the linkage for now and keep it simple.
The clutch setup uses the 1098cc pressure plate with a 7.5" sierra clutch plate (which i'm struggling to find the part number for...???) and standard moggy clutch release bearing.
I have the midget flywheel ready to be drilled out for the larger moggy pressure plate, but I read somewhere on a midget forum that it needs to be skimmed. is this true? I cannot see why it would, but i've attached images to show what the setup looks like at the moment.
I'm wondering whether to use my 1098cc flywheel and have it drilled to fit the midget crank plus two holes for dowel location, or to have the midget clutch drilled and tapped for the minor pressure plate (could be mroe costly if it needs a skim as well...).
The other option is to go hydraulic (slave already in place for this on bellhousing) but this would involve fitting a master cylinder and modifying the clutch pedal which I don't have time to do at the moment. time is of the essence as i only have a week off to do the conversion.
Just spoke to Mike at David Manners on the phone when buying the new clutch plate (£94 just for the plate!!) and he said they still use the same clutch setup, so I guess it must work?! I'm just worried that by pulling the pressure plate flush with the flywheel this much will not allow the clutch plate to release?
Any thoughts? :)
Attachments
IMG_3038.JPG
midget plate vs sierra plate thicken (despite difference in wear
IMG_3038.JPG (1.71 MiB) Viewed 2714 times
IMG_3026.JPG
how close the midget pressure plate that came off sits
IMG_3026.JPG (2.72 MiB) Viewed 2714 times
IMG_3033.JPG
note gap betweem pressure plate and flywheel
IMG_3033.JPG (562.87 KiB) Viewed 2714 times
IMG_3031.JPG
how the plate sits on the midget flywheel
IMG_3031.JPG (705.48 KiB) Viewed 2714 times


Monty-4
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby Monty-4 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:17 pm

I've heard really mixed things about the linkage kit - from "it's fine" to "worst thing ever"! Depends who you call.

Do let us know how it goes!
68' 4-door Saloon, another 'Monty'.

philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:26 pm

If you want the 7.5" clutch fitted to the 1275cc Midget flywheel the Midget flywheel will have to be skimmed and indexed drilled (see my photo above).
If you do not have the 1275cc flywheel skimmed but have the holes drilled for the 1098cc clutch cover the clutch will not work.
The holes must be indexed drilled and the necessary number of dowels fitted.
If you want to use the 1098cc flywheel the flywheel centre will have to be modified.
Which ever way you go it is going to cost money and possibly more importantly for you ----time.


moggymaniac
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:31 pm

Thanks for the comments guys,
I've decided i'm going to get the 1098 flywheel drilled to fit the midget crankshaft. This will likely be cheaper than having 8 holes drilled and a skim on the midget flywheel. I'd rather keep the midget flywheel untouched so that if I choose to go hydraulic after poor linkage results, I have a flywheel and can use the midget clutch setup. FYI this is a lot cheaper than using a sierra clutch plate (£95 from david manners just for the plate).
Just need to find someone who can do this for me asap in the south east london area.
Will report back at the weekend! :)


philthehill
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:32 am

You will also have to acquire/have made the special bush for the rear of the crankshaft/flywheel.
See the link below for the style of bush required.
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... ge-p830100

See also:
http://frontline-developments.s3.amazon ... -speed.pdf


moggymaniac
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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:21 pm

cheers phil,
i bought the special spigot from frontline at the beginning of the week to go into the midget flywheel, but now that i'm using the 1098 flywheel it will have to fit that...i hope the center hole is the same size!
I dropped off the flyhweels to a local engineer today for the 1098 one to be drilled to 6 bolt with dowel location holes. He seemed unsure whether there'd be enough metal to be able to do the dowel holes but looking at the esm one without the dowel holes, I reckon it must be possible. Makes you wonder why ESM don't make a modified one for the midget crankshaft too...?
Bracket arrived for the linkage today, and already have the frontline instructions with the kit I bought, but thanks for posting the link...very useful!


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Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:42 pm

The hole in the centre of a 1275cc Midget flywheel is 43.4mm. The hole in the centre of a 1098cc flywheel is 44.7mm.
Therefore I would suggest that you do need the adapter for the 1098cc flywheel but check with Frontline to be sure.
I suspect that ESM do not do the 1275cc Midget conversion because the register on the back of the crankshaft and inside the flywheel front face is not flat as is the 1098cc flywheel & which would push up the price and complicate conversion.
There used to be an off the shelf exchange 7.5" clutch conversion for the 1275cc Midget flywheel which I had fitted to my Minor many years ago but I have not seen it available for some time now - see below for details.
Because the 7.5" dia clutch is a common size it does mean that either the BMC 7.5" clutch centre plate or the Ford 7.5" clutch centre plate could be used dependent upon gearbox used.
Attachments
img221.jpg
img221.jpg (456.29 KiB) Viewed 2627 times



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