Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Discuss mechanical problems here.

Moderator: Moderators

moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:52 am

Well, she's still off the road...
Frontline have now sent me 3 spigot bearings as the 1098 type is too loose in my 1098 flywheel (Tim at frontline said he had only heard of this happening once ever!). So I have one that is too big which I will get turned down to interference fit. Everything else is done...itching to get the engine in the car now and give it a try!


philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 6651
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:17 pm

For information could you please post the size of the central hole in your flywheel.
What spigot bush (before machining) have you finally decided on?
From my measurements the 1275cc hole is smaller than the 1098cc and the 1098cc one supplied is too small for the hole in your flywheel.
Interesting :-?

It does say on the Front line web site regarding the fitment of the new modified spigot bush that machining may be required.


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:53 pm

Finally had a chance to get some work done on the moggy today. It was perhaps naive of me to think i could do this conversion in a week :o

Frontline sent me the largest of their 3 spigots (not sure for what application but it has a substanstially larger diameter where it goes into the flywheel. I don't have the measurements i'm afraid as i took it striaght round to my local engineer who machined it down before heating it up and interference fitting it into the flywheel.

Got the engine running today finally...FYI accuspark electronic distributor body fires correctly at 180 degrees out to where it was in the 1098cc engine (not sure why) but obviously dizzy locates in one place on the drive, just had to rotate the body 180 to get the timing in roughly the right place.

I have a problem now which means i'm going to have to take the lot out again...it won't go in gear! Adjusted all the way up the adjusting arm thread (and more...tapped addition thread to the arm!) and tried at every point of adjustment and it won't go in gear while the engine is running. The setup is as follows:

1275 midget engine
1098cc flywheel drilled to fit 1275 crankshaft
sierra 6.5" (if i remember correctly) clutch friction plate
morris minor 1098cc clutch pressure plate
david manners bellhousing (old welded style not cast)
morris minor carbon clutch release bearing and pivot arm
morris minor 1000 clutch pedal linkage with david manners linkage usage bracket
morris 1000 clutch adjustment arm.
1.6 or 2L short input shaft ford type 9 gearbox.

I can see (as in picture) that when the clutch is adjusted to be as engaged as possible, the release bearing is touch the centre of the pressure plate) i'm aware there should be 3-4mm free play in the pedal before this happens, but as the clutch didn't seem to be releasing i adjusted it as much as possible to see if it made a difference (it didn't except for the car wants to stall when you depress the clutch pedal).
I can see the release bearing pushing the pressure plate forward (a fair amount!) through a small hole in the bellhousing, and yet it still won't go in gear. If i put it in gear then try to start the car it moves as if you're starting it in gear, which says to me the pressure plate isn't letting the friction plate away from the flywheel enough, if at all (it is a second hand pressure plate which came second hand with the kit so untested). I'm aware the sierra plate is thicker and so there needs to be ample movement of the pressure plate as there is, but no joy. All i can think is that the pressure plate is faulty. An a separate note, mating the engine to the gearbox in the car was V difficult...had to wind them together using the bellhousing bolts which i've never experienced before.

Think I will need to take it all out and have a look, but before i do...any thoughts? It will all be worth it in the end... :roll:


Sleeper
Minor Fan
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:18 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby Sleeper » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:29 pm

"I don't have the measurements i'm afraid as i took it striaght round to my local engineer who machined it down before heating it up and interference fitting it into the flywheel."

I'll put my money on the spigot bearing being tight on the gearbox input shaft , why did your engineer heat up the bush ? surely that would make it larger ??

John :wink:

Another pointer..
An a separate note, mating the engine to the gearbox in the car was V difficult...had to wind them together using the bellhousing bolts"

StillGotMy1stCar
Minor Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:37 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby StillGotMy1stCar » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:56 pm

I think you may have answered your own question when you had to draw the box in with the bellhousing bolts.
Rusty splines? Did you try the friction plate on the gearbox shaft.
Is it possible to get the friction plate back to front.
I reckon Sleeper has the answer with tight spigot bearing.
Regards John

moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Ok guys...
Cheers for this...well it's an all out job to figure it out anyway so will report back when I've had a chance to do it. I seem to remember him saying he would heat up the spigot in order to fit it tightly into the flywheel (I stressed that it needed to be tight as the previous one wasn't and I'd already had a different engineer (not at the same place) drill the crankshaft dowel holes wrong...so I wanted to be clear. Can't imagine heating would a good idea with copper (is it?) centre in the spigot.
I was silly enough not to try friction plate on the splines of the shaft...will tick all these boxes time round for sure before it goes back in the car. Hopefully I've not ruined any parts...


Sleeper
Minor Fan
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:18 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby Sleeper » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:20 am

"heat up the spigot in order to fit it tightly into the flywheel" , probably heat up the flywheel to fit the spigot in ?

Keep us updated...

John :wink:

moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:22 pm

So i've taken it all back out and here is what I have found:
1. The brass centre of the spigot bearing has moved forward slightly, and there appears to be a small crack in the engine side of this brass bush as seen in the picture. I don't believe it's enough to 'crimp' the input shaft, but since i forgot to lubricate with HMP grease when fitting,maybe it could grip the main shaft of the gearbox...?? I have put the flywheel onto the shaft to make sure it isn't too tight and it seems ok, not constrictingly tight, but not super loose. I'm hoping that by filing down the front brass edge of the spigot and adding HMP grease, this will free up any friction between main shaft and spigot bearing.

2. The other face of the spigot bearing (i.e. the gearbox side) is fouling the splines on the main shaft of the gearbox, which is apparent in the image and also in the metal filings which were found around the spigot bearing and centre splines on the clutch plate. The spigot cannot come any further forward as it is sitting flush with the back face of the flywheel (the side that mounts to the crankshaft). I've calculated that in order to foul the splines of the main shaft (which are now slightly burred, see pic :roll: ) the back face of the flywheel would have to be an inch inside the bellhousing from the engine backplate, and this is exactly the measure between backplate and crankshaft face which mounts to the flywheel,confirming that it has been fouling. The only thing I can see is that the rear of the midget crankshaft has a recess for location of the midget flywheel (just to remind you all i'm using 1098 flywheel) but the large end of the spigot is bigger than the diameter of the recess. I think this extra 2mm (approx) could give the clearance needed to stop the spigot touching the splines on the main shaft and allow the mainshaft to slow as the clutch is released and therefore allow gears to be selected (if the mainshaft is currently being driven by the contact with the spigot bearing). For this to happen i would need to remove the spigot, which will be fun as the flywheel was heated to get it in, and have someone turn down the shoulder of the large end of the spigot bearing (steel part) by about 2mm to locate nicely in the recess of the midget crankshaft. I'm about to phone frontline now and will report back. But feel free to voice opinions and have a look at the photos below. J
Attachments
IMG_3194.JPG
IMG_3194.JPG (362.83 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3195.JPG
IMG_3195.JPG (134.29 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3196.JPG
engine side of spigot
IMG_3196.JPG (255.23 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3197.JPG
gearbox side of spigot once again showing wear
IMG_3197.JPG (252.26 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3198.JPG
clutch plate was correct way round and has the right number of splines! good news...
IMG_3198.JPG (149.69 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3199.JPG
recess in crankshaft, slight mark where spigot diameter located, showing it is larger than this recess
IMG_3199.JPG (222.26 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3200.JPG
flywheel locatedon the mainshaft, not overly tight but fouling on splines behind when an inch from backplate of engine
IMG_3200.JPG (237.65 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3201.JPG
engine side of spigot bearing, brass part has come forward by a few mm, wear visible in brass where shaft was locating (without grease...oops)
IMG_3201.JPG (133.57 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3202.JPG
main shaft of gearbox, splines appear slightly burred
IMG_3202.JPG (182.76 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3203.JPG
metal filings around the splines on the clutch plate
IMG_3203.JPG (231.82 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
IMG_3204.JPG
gearbox side of spigot bearing - see wear in the metal
IMG_3204.JPG (134.83 KiB) Viewed 1449 times


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:19 pm

I can confirm that after speaking to frontline, I do have the correct length mainshaft and not the longer v6 shaft...which rules that one out. waiting for a call back from them now, but earlier we came to the conclusion that it's a clearance issue, and i may try to have the spigot machined again to fit the crank recess to gain a couple of extra mm or have the main shaft of the gearbox machined down to take the lengths of the splines back a few mm further from the spigot.


philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 6651
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:04 pm

Machine/trim the front of the bush so as to be aligned with the spigot insert.
Cut the centre out of a 948cc rear engine plate and install the remaining plate between the 1098cc/1275cc rear engine plate and the gearbox bell housing.
It will push the gearbox back the amount required.
I had to use part of a 948cc rear engine plate fitted between the starter motor flange and the 1275cc rear engine plate to get the starter motor positioned correctly fore and aft.


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:04 pm

Hi Phil,
Good idea, but why a 948 backplate and not a 1098cc backplate? I already have a spare one of those! J


philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 6651
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:23 pm

The 948cc rear engine plate at 4mm thick is made from rolled steel so easy to cut and form. The 1098cc rear engine plate is made from cast/sintered iron (sic) and is of 7.8mm thickness; I am certain that a revised 1098cc rear engine plate would be subject to cracking as the material has no real inherent strength.
The 948cc rear engine plate is about the right thickness for your requirements and has the advantage of that rolled edge for additional strength.
Phil
Last edited by philthehill on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:54 pm

Ok then, Have just picked up one on ebay. Will cut the center out and use the rest as a sandwich plate between back plate and bellhousing to give me the clearance. As the ring gear will be 4mm further away from the dog on the starter motor, do you see that I will have to space the starter 4mm forward with part of another 948 backplate? or might i get away with it?
thanks
J


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:02 pm

just realised i'm talking absolute rubbish and starter position relative to ringgear won't change!


philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 6651
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:04 pm

As you are finding out once you stray from the standard product it is a question of try, adjust and try again with a little bit of suck it and see attitude.
As regards the starter motor - You are correct - you are not effecting or adjusting the relationship between the starter Bendix and starter ring gear as the starter will be still bolted to the front face of the rear engine plate and the flywheel will still be in the same position.
All you are doing is pushing the gearbox back by 4mm.

Phil


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:34 pm

This is why I resisted from modifying for so long! Haha we'll get there eventually!
Thanks for your help, Phil. J


philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 6651
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby philthehill » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:58 pm

When I fitted the CS Auto Classics Ford 4 speed kit to my Minor with the then 1275cc/1400cc engine it was one of the first if not the first to be fitted to a 1275cc engine and that was fun to do - the bell housing/gearbox must have been fitted and taken off again for adjustment possibly in excess of a dozen or more times. The hardest thing was getting the clutch release mechanism right. It all came right in the end.
Phil


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:08 pm

Sounds involved! Hopefully this will be the last hiccup...fingers crossed!


moggymaniac
Minor Friendly
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby moggymaniac » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:26 pm

On the way back in...new linkage, new pressure plate, new spacer! Fingers crossed this time. Engine and box went together MUCH easier this time. Won't get time to finish and test till next weekend now.
Attachments
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (2.27 MiB) Viewed 1375 times


Beatroot52
Minor Friendly
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:52 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Midget 1275, Ford Type 9 5 speed, concentric clutch slave

Postby Beatroot52 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:15 pm

Hi moggymaniac

Just seen this post and am having/had all the same problems with the spigot. I got hold of 4 different spigots, all slightly different sizes. Frontline are aware of this problem, as are moss and david manners. Draw your own conclusion

After a lengthy discussion with mototech engineers (melbourne grove, east dulwich) they asked me 'why on earth would you want an interference fit to the flywheel?' And was advised to pick the tightest fit to crank and loosest fit to flywheel and if i was worried then drill and tap spigot to crank.
i am more inclined to think that this is the way forward.
Please dont believe the companies who make these kits have the best solutions.

I'm installing a burton concentric clutch slave with sierra clutch HK8941, 1098 flywheel redrilled for this (gosnays, a12)
with a home made bellhousing ( not by me)

All the best
Dan


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests