Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

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neilmorey
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Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:04 pm

Having fitted new eye bolt bushes this morning I started fitting the brake disc kit this afternoon. All went well until trying to offer up the new hub to the stub axle. The original hub had to be removed with a puller but wouldn't have said it was ridiculously tight once it started moving.

The new inner bearing will not go beyond the shoulder where it goes from tapered to straight on the stub axle. Does a taper roller bearing need to be fitted to the stub axle using a drift, wouldn't have thought so? Have asked ESM for advice but wondered how many others have ftted this kit with or without issue?

The original inner bearing was 34LJT25 and the new bearing is 30205. The new one is marked KG which I guess is the manufacturer, identified by some suppliers as Economy Quality- wonder which end they err towards economy or quality?

The second photo is a bit blury but shows where the bearing gets stuck. If the whole hub is put on the stub then the outer bearing is flush with the end of the threaded part as it won't go onto the smooth section of the stub axle either.

My thoughts are that either bearings are undersize, the stub is oversize or everything is fine and I need to apply more force?

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Any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks

philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:23 pm

The bearings should slide over the stub axle with just a little hand pressure and at most use the hub nut to press the hub & bearings into place - there should be no need for using a drift.
Using a puller to remove a standard Minor front hub is quite common.
The outer bearing is the correct one 30203 J2 and is the same as the one used in the early Grumpy kit.
The inner bearing is a substitute for the original top hat and L44649 bearing.
You could try using some fine wet and dry lubricated with WD40 on the stub axle bearing seats and see if it eases the bearing fitment.
The stub axles were made to a fine tolerance and I have found very little difference in the finished diameters for both inner and outer bearings on the couple of spare Minor stub axles I have.


neilmorey
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:30 pm

I spoke to my Dad earlier, who originally owned the Traveller, and he suggested using a micrometer to measure the stub axle. In a mad Ebay moment I bought an old Moore & Wright imperial micrometer last year. It is difficult to get a totally accurate measure on the stub axle as can't be sure it is at the widest part but looks to measure around 0.98 " which converts to just under 25mm so no reason why a bearing with a 25mm internal diameter shouldn't fit. Unfortunately I don't have a way to measure the internal diameter of the bearings.

Will give the shaft a light smoothing with wet and dry tomorrow and see how that goes.

Thanks

philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:45 am

I have measured the bearing seats of the spare Minor stub axles with my digital caliper which has been checked against a Moore and Wright imperial test piece and they measure 0.983" or 24.97mm for the large bearing seat and 0.668" or 16.97mm for the small bearing seat.
There are two danger points to be wary off with fitting a taper bearing which is tight on the stub axle.
One when you come to remove the hub the tight inner bearing could split leaving the inner race on the stub axle which will then present difficulties in its removal.
Second is the inability to set the bearing play. As these bearings are taper they should be set so as to give slight movement at the wheel rim. If the bearing is tight the bearing may not have the required clearance, the rollers may slip and flats develop on them ruining the bearing.
Therefore it is most important that the bearings fit over the stub axle with just the lightest of pressure.


neilmorey
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:39 pm

Thanks Phil, reckon mine is in the same region. I tried the wet and dry paper with Ferrosol and it has done the trick. Still a firm fit but can pull it on and off now at least.
I've not done bearings on the Morris before but first few cars were Mk1 and 2 Fiestas followed by a Mk2 Golf and i changed a few rear bearings on those without difficulty and they always slid straight on.
My guess is that the KG bearings provided may be a touch tight on manufacturing tolerances. Going to pop along to an Engineering company this afternoon to get a branded replacement and see if it is a better fit.

Editted Tuesday PM. If anyone in the Edinburgh area needs bearings I can thoroughly recomend Forth Engineering in Granton, friendly helpful and efficient. SKF bearings slid straight on to stub axle with no problems which suggest that the tolerance on the KG brand is different. Going to get hold of a set of calipers and measure the internal diameter to check how close it is to 25mm.

philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:14 pm

Neil
Can you please post the SKF part number of the inner bearing on here please.
Phil


IslipMinor
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby IslipMinor » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:54 pm

Phil,

Not sure if SKF metric taper roller bearings can be supplied as a separate cup and cone? The imperial certainly could, and had catalogued separate part numbers for the cup and cone. Looking at the SKF technical catalogue, there are no references to separate cups and cones for metric taper roller bearings.
Richard



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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:18 pm

The SKF part number is exactly the same as the KG bearing supplied with the kit. They come as a matched two part set of bearing cup and the cone bearings.
Inner bearing is 30205 J2/Q.
[url]http://www.skf.com/group/products/beari ... 20J2/Q[url]

Outer bearing 30203 J2.

[url]http://www.skf.com/group/products/beari ... %20J2/[url]

philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:49 am

Neil
Many thanks for posting the full SKF bearing number.
Phil


IslipMinor
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby IslipMinor » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:24 am

Phil,

Oops! I (mis)read your request for the inner bearing part number as the part number for the inner part of the bearing, i.e. the cone on its own! Hence my reply.

The Grumpy kit uses an inner bearing (30205 J2/Q) that is basically the same size as the original angular contact bearing (7205B) - 52mm OD x 25mm ID. The Grumpy outer bearing (30203 J2) has a smaller OD - 40mm vs 47mm for the standard 7303B angular contact. The taper roller equivalent of a 7303B is 30303 J2.

Both the taper roller equivalents are 1.25mm wider/thicker than the angular contact, but the Grumpy outer bearing is 0.75mm narrower/thinner.
Richard



philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:27 am

Richard
Thank you for the clarification and the bearing details.
Phil


neilmorey
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:12 pm

Just to give an update on where I've got to and a few other issues with the supplied fitting instructions.

1. No torque figure given for bolting disc to hub. Part of instructions cut off
2. 8 No washers supplied but no reference in the instructions as to where they should go.
3. Instruction to fit calliper but no mention of installing pads. Have to hope a diy installer would realise this but think this is a fundamental omission from the instructions.
4. Last bit to install is a rigid link pipe from the calliper to the flexi. Absolutely horrible to fit, very tight radius needed to get round steering arm.

Have contacted supplier for guidance but for such a well established conversion they do seem significant omissions when intended to DIY fitting.

Will report back with more photos once I'm happy it is right.

philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:00 pm

Neil
The torque for the qty 4 bolts holding the disc to the hub is 45lb ft. I would recommend that they are Loctited in place.

There are qty 4 spring washers which fit over the bolts holding the caliper to the mounting bracket.

There are qty 8 spring washers which fit under the nuts holding the caliper mounting bracket to the swivel/upright securing bolts.
(note:- those 8 bolts have reduced thickness heads so as not to foul the hub when fitted). I have replaced the spring washers and nuts with self locking nuts as can be seen in the photo below.

As regards fitting the brake pads there are no serious problems to be encountered.
Just get the anti squeal shims the right way round - they do have an arrow showing direction of disc rotation so fit with arrow pointing in direction of rotation. Coat the shims and back of the brake pad with a light application of Copper -Ease.

When utilising Marina parts it is a good idea to get a Marina/Ital workshop manual as nearly all the torque settings and instructions are contained within the document.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BL-Marina-Wor ... SwEeFVBHtr

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MARINA ... Sw44BYGOCM

The swivel end of the hydraulic brake pipe should be fitted into the bracket provided which fits under the steering arm nut. The ridged pipe then goes from the flexible to the caliper. Yes it is tight but is do-able.
Below is a picture of the Grumpys set up on my Minor and as can be seen the ridged pipe is nowhere near the steering arm.
Those ridged pipes were supplied as straight pipes.
The mounting plate for the flexible pipe may be set to point slightly downwards (as per those on my Minor) to give better clearance.
Phil
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neilmorey
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:39 pm

Thanks Phil, a Marina workshop manual would be a good idea so I'll keep an eye out on Ebay. I'm just a bit surprised that the fitting instructions with the kit don't give the bits of information that are missing, e.g. hub to disc torque (text is cut off in the instructions so it could have been there originally), washer location (not on diagram) and pad fitting instructions (not mentioned at all) as they are specific to the kit.

When I found the washers sitting unused in the parts container I kind of guessed where they might have gone but they are not shown in the illustrations that come with the kit. The nuts in the kit are nyloc rather than standard nuts with a lock washer.

Luckily my Dad kept an old article from Minor Matters (May 2002) that showed how to replace disc pads in a converted Minor, so that helped me out.

This is how I've routed the rigid brake pipe from the calliper to the braket on the kingpin/ steering arm bolt. I can remember cars I owned in the past where it was almost impossible to undo the brake unions because there was a tight bend that wouldn't let the union travel down the pipe far enough and I was wary of this happening again. It looks like the pipe exits differently from calliper on your car? On the new caliper it exits vertically and would need an immediate 90 degree bend to get under the arm, was easier to bring it up and then back down.

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Here are the supplied fiting instructions for those that may be interested in doing this conversion one day. The kit is pretty good and not too bad to install but a little more clarity would make it even better. I can't help thinking Timken or SKF bearings should be supplied rather than far east versions but guess that is the old argument about Morris owners not being willing to pay more for quality.



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Sleeper
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby Sleeper » Mon May 01, 2017 6:44 am

Neil
Have you fitted a servo with the above,I did and didn't like it, it just didn't feel comfortable,and after doing some reading found out the ratio was 1.6 : 1,this was increased to 2.0 :1 and was better , finally settled on 2.3 : 1.
Each to their own as brake feel is a personal thing.and I like to feel safe ,not tried it yet but I would like it to be able to lock the wheels ( which is considered unsafe,but,I have a plan for fitting ABS ).

John :wink:
( all figures approx)

philthehill
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby philthehill » Mon May 01, 2017 11:03 am

Neil
The calipers fitted to my Minor as part of the Grumpys conversion are original Marina ones with the fluid entry/brake pipe as shown.
Your brake pipe route looks ok - so long as the pipe is clear of the suspension/steering at all angles of lock you will be alright.

John
Yes fitting a servo to a Minor is a personal thing but I have never seen the need to fit a servo to a Minor. My Marina brake conversion does not have servo assistance.
If the brakes are in good working order even the 7" brakes can lock the wheels.
I also like to feel the road (normally called driving by the seat of ones pants) through the brakes and steering and that is the one thing that is difficult to do on my modern car fitted with servo, ABS and power steering.


neilmorey
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Tue May 02, 2017 8:07 pm

Sleeper, I've not gone for a servo at this time. Thought I'd try without first and if necessary fit one at a later date- can't do all the fun jobs in one go!

Phil, once again thanks for your invaluable advice in making sure I don't do anything daft. The Marina callipers are a new design to me, I've always had Ford or VAG vehicles where the calliper is removed to replace the pads rather than them being replaced with calliper Insitu.
Found this note on ESM site regarding new Marina callipers. All becomes clear.

GRUMPY MARINA TYPE Brake Caliper R/H (OUTRIGHT SALE - NON EXCHANGE )Replacement R/H caliper for Marina type front disc brakes - Please note that the existing pipe work may need to be altered to suit this caliper as the inlet is in a different position.


Neil.

neilmorey
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby neilmorey » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Finally got this finished today and been for a test drive, all good but will need a while for pads to bed in.

Wife says it seems like I've been working on this for ages, true but during this time it's hardly been regular sessions in the garage.

Thanks to all those who helped me via the forum.

Finished installation.

Image

bob1
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby bob1 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:59 pm

Hi I'm thinking of fitting this kit to my car, thanks for providing some useful info. How do the brakes feel when the pads have bedded in?

Declan_Burns
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Re: Mr Grumpy Brake Disc Kit

Postby Declan_Burns » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:15 pm

Bob,
I have that kit on my car for nearly 10 years and the braking is superb.
Regards
Declan


Regards
Declan


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